[Arm-netbook] How much to design A20 board?

[joem]

Hi,

Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board (like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

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[Alejandro Mery]

Hi Joem, look at olimex boards at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/open-source-hardware they
are OSHW and so the complete design is open source.

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board (like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Alejandro Mery
Hi Joem, look at olimex boards at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/open-source-hardware they
are OSHW and so the complete design is open source.

the designs are under the "attribution" style licenses, forcing you
to advertise as part of the product. as such they are *not* libre
licensed. if the designs were released under a GPL license it would
be a different matter.

l.

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[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Alejandro Mery
Hi Joem, look at olimex boards at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/open-source-hardware they
are OSHW and so the complete design is open source.

the designs are under the "attribution" style licenses, forcing you
to advertise as part of the product. as such they are *not* libre
licensed. if the designs were released under a GPL license it would
be a different matter.

really?

"provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy
an appropriate copyright notice; keep intact all notices stating that
this License and any non-permissive terms added in accord with section 7
apply to the code; keep intact all notices of the absence of any
warranty; and give all recipients a copy of this License along with the
Program." in GPLv3

"provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy
an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact
all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any
warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this
License along with the Program." in GPLv2

Not very different from the Attribution clause in
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode

The only widespread FLOSS licenses that I know of that doesn't include
similar wording are a Public Domain dedication (such as CC0) and
the WTFPL.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Elena ``of Valhalla''

Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Alejandro Mery
Hi Joem, look at olimex boards at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/open-source-hardware they
are OSHW and so the complete design is open source.

the designs are under the "attribution" style licenses, forcing you
to advertise as part of the product. as such they are *not* libre
licensed. if the designs were released under a GPL license it would
be a different matter.

really?

yes.

Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
"provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy
an appropriate copyright notice; keep intact all notices stating that
this License and any non-permissive terms added in accord with section 7
apply to the code; keep intact all notices of the absence of any
warranty; and give all recipients a copy of this License along with the
Program." in GPLv3
"provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy
an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact
all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any
warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this
License along with the Program." in GPLv2

so that's in the source code.

Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Not very different from the Attribution clause in
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode

attribution clauses require you to advertise *on the product*.

that's utterly different from requiring to maintain the copyright
notice and the fact that there is a license *in the source code*.

if you're not familiar with or don't clearly understand the
difference, look up the history behind why the Debian Team renamed
firefox to "iceweasel".

l.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you're not familiar with or don't clearly understand the
difference, look up the history behind why the Debian Team renamed
firefox to "iceweasel".

here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project

so, if joe were to use the CC-attribution design, he would be
required to advertise the name of the creator on the OUTSIDE OF THE
PRODUCT.

prominently. including on the casework if the PCB is inside a box.

so, when someone bought that product, despite the fact that joe would
be the one that had put the effort into marketing, sales, spent the
up-front cash on prototypes (which is a considerable amount)...

.... guess whom the customers are most likely to contact?

not joe - the one who put the effort into getting a polished
professional product into their hands.

by complete contrast, for GPL'd products, all you have to do is put a
little bit of paper in the box saying "contact us if you want the
source code".

you *DO NOT* have to put "Copyright (C) Blah Blah" on the OUTSIDE OF
THE PRODUCT, just because it's got some software in it (or in the case
of hardware is manufactured from design files that are GPL licensed).

is that clearer?

btw i was amazed and deeply impressed when i bought a TP-Link router
last year, because it contained *exactly that* in the box. finally -
at long last - a large company that understands its obligations under
the GPL.

l.

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[Philip Hands]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you're not familiar with or don't clearly understand the
difference, look up the history behind why the Debian Team renamed
firefox to "iceweasel".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project

That was nothing to do with copyright, nor attribution.

The problem is the way that Mozilla enforces its trademark.

Mozilla is (fairly reasonably) concerned that people might take one of
it's trademarked programs, trojan it, and redistribute the result under
the name of e.g. Firefox, thus tainting their good name. They therefore
reserve the right to specify which code costitutes Firefox, etc. and
want sight of any patches that are applied to allow them to determine
whether they should withdraw the use of the name from the result of the
patch.

Debian on the other hand wants to be able to apply security patches
without needing to ask Mozilla for approval, and more importantly perhaps
want not to impose such restrictions on their downstreams.

The use of the Ice* names is done to avoid the scenario where a security
fix fails to meet with approval, and then the Debian maintainers being
faced with the need to do an emergency trademark purge in order to
deploy a security fix.

Cheers, Phil.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Philip Hands

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you're not familiar with or don't clearly understand the
difference, look up the history behind why the Debian Team renamed
firefox to "iceweasel".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project

That was nothing to do with copyright, nor attribution.
The problem is the way that Mozilla enforces its trademark.
Mozilla is (fairly reasonably) concerned that people might take one of
its trademarked programs, trojan it, and redistribute the result under
the name of e.g. Firefox, thus tainting their good name. They therefore
reserve the right to specify which code costitutes Firefox, etc. and
want sight of any patches that are applied to allow them to determine
whether they should withdraw the use of the name from the result of the
patch.

so mozilla have a total lack of trust of the debian team. that's the
debian team who have software libre's interests, user's interests,
their own long-standing reputation (backed up by GPG-signing) to
protect, and the mozilla foundation's directors could not see fit to
trust such reliable and reputable people to look after something as
critical as security patches.

Post by Philip Hands
Debian on the other hand wants to be able to apply security patches
without needing to ask Mozilla for approval, and more importantly perhaps
want not to impose such restrictions on their downstreams.
The use of the Ice* names is done to avoid the scenario where a security
fix fails to meet with approval, and then the Debian maintainers being
faced with the need to do an emergency trademark purge in order to
deploy a security fix.

good for them. sounds like the right decision.

also sounds very much like i quoted _completely_ the wrong example.
any other mistakes i made that you can see, phil? :)

l.

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[Philip Hands]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Philip Hands

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you're not familiar with or don't clearly understand the
difference, look up the history behind why the Debian Team renamed
firefox to "iceweasel".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_the_Debian_project

That was nothing to do with copyright, nor attribution.
The problem is the way that Mozilla enforces its trademark.
Mozilla is (fairly reasonably) concerned that people might take one of
its trademarked programs, trojan it, and redistribute the result under
the name of e.g. Firefox, thus tainting their good name. They therefore
reserve the right to specify which code costitutes Firefox, etc. and
want sight of any patches that are applied to allow them to determine
whether they should withdraw the use of the name from the result of the
patch.

so mozilla have a total lack of trust of the debian team.

No.

Mozilla has a trademark policy designed to deal with abusers.

Debian has a policy that requires any license to _not_ be exclusive to
Debian, because that would cause trouble downstream.

These two things are both reasonable, but sadly incompatible.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's the
debian team who have software libre's interests, user's interests,
their own long-standing reputation (backed up by GPG-signing) to
protect, and the mozilla foundation's directors could not see fit to
trust such reliable and reputable people to look after something as
critical as security patches.

None of that is relevant.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Philip Hands
Debian on the other hand wants to be able to apply security patches
without needing to ask Mozilla for approval, and more importantly perhaps
want not to impose such restrictions on their downstreams.
The use of the Ice* names is done to avoid the scenario where a security
fix fails to meet with approval, and then the Debian maintainers being
faced with the need to do an emergency trademark purge in order to
deploy a security fix.

good for them. sounds like the right decision.
also sounds very much like i quoted _completely_ the wrong example.
any other mistakes i made that you can see, phil? :)

Since you ask:

https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/open-source-hardware

"The Hardware project is released under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License."

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#ccbysa

"This is a copyleft free license that is good for ..."

So the olimex boards are under an FSF-approved copyleft license.

I think perhaps you've conflated the word "Attribution" with the
BSD 4-clause license (with its obnoxious "Advertising" clause):

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#OriginalBSD

Cheers, Phil.

[joem]

Post by Philip Hands
Mozilla has a trademark policy designed to deal with abusers.
Debian has a policy that requires any license to _not_ be exclusive to
Debian, because that would cause trouble downstream.
These two things are both reasonable, but sadly incompatible.

For what it may be worth, my ultimate aim is to get the thing built,
and redo it in KiCAD and eventually build it and release
it under GPL with full documentation as I'm paying for it.
The aim is to have a GPL'd base design out there and watch all those
GPL'd derivatives being built to harness it for more projects.

The two or three dollar differences between boards doesn't
go towards much in the way of profit today if anyone cares to look into
it. So a fully GPL'd kicad design that anyone can customize
won't be harming anyone with a head screwed on.

Its what you customise these boards into that matters.
For example PCDuino is a wild success because although its
a cubieboard equivalent, it has arduino compatibility
and is sold as an Arduino on steroids which it is :)

There are a lot more projects like that
waiting to happen me thinks.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Philip Hands
I think perhaps you've conflated the word "Attribution" with the

that sounds about right.

Post by Philip Hands
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#OriginalBSD

ta for the clarification phil.

l.

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[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
"provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy
an appropriate copyright notice; keep intact all notices stating that
[...]

so that's in the source code.

also in non source: section 6 says

"You may convey a covered work in object code form under the terms of
sections 4 and 5" (section 4 is the one quoted above)

similar wording is also in GPLv2

[joem]

Post by Alejandro Mery
Hi Joem, look at olimex boards
at https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A20/open-source-hardware they are OSHW and so the complete design is open source.

--

Post by Alejandro Mery
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board (like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

Hi Alejandro,

Thank you for that link. Do you think they can design a custom board to
specifications and just hand over the design files for a fee?
And make 10 samples to prove it works.



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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Post by joem
(like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

about $USD 2.5k

l.

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[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Thats a good number! Do you think they will hand over the design files?
I don't want to spend another 2.5k on top for the 10 samples.
(Cheaper companies out there that source and populate.)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
(like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

about $USD 2.5k

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Thats a good number! Do you think they will hand over the design files?

they always do.

Post by joem
I don't want to spend another 2.5k on top for the 10 samples.

it was approximate.

... y'know... if you're looking for someone to design an A20 board, i
could always do it for you, i have a working proven and very small
footprint board.

l.

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[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Thats a good number! Do you think they will hand over the design files?

they always do.

Post by joem
I don't want to spend another 2.5k on top for the 10 samples.

it was approximate.
... y'know... if you're looking for someone to design an A20 board, i
could always do it for you, i have a working proven and very small
footprint board.

If you are offering, then name a ball park price (send to
***@enemygadgets.com)
I'm happy to say you deserve it more than anyone else :)

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... y'know... if you're looking for someone to design an A20 board, i
could always do it for you, i have a working proven and very small
footprint board.

If you are offering,

i am :)

Post by joem
then name a ball park price (send to
I'm happy to say you deserve it more than anyone else :)

:)

done sah.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Hi,
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Thats a good number! Do you think they will hand over the design files?

they always do.

Post by joem
I don't want to spend another 2.5k on top for the 10 samples.

it was approximate.
... y'know... if you're looking for someone to design an A20 board, i
could always do it for you, i have a working proven and very small
footprint board.

If you are offering, then name a ball park price (send to
I'm happy to say you deserve it more than anyone else :)

thought about this a bit more: i need 10 samples of a revised
EOMA68-A20, after i just changed the standard (again. for the last
time. again).

i'll do you a deal: if you can pay for the 10 samples, i'll do the
design of an A20 board for you. that way, apart from anything, both
of us would get a better deal on sample quantity.

l.

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[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Post by joem
(like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

about $USD 2.5k

The first batch funding of 1.6 kilo dollars on its way Luke :)

The board I want is designed to run on 18650 or 26650 batteries (very
similar to a UPS configuration) and have capacitive touch LCDs.

Its just right for building a million dollar 6 petabyte SSD server that
fits in a space of 2 cubic meters or thereabouts consuming 10kW.

You may not want to believe all that right now.. :)


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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
Just wondering how much is it these days ball park to pay someone like
witstech or a similar design outfit to design an A20 board

about $USD 3-4k

Post by joem
(like a
cubie) and make 10 samples?

about $USD 2.5k

The first batch funding of 1.6 kilo dollars on its way Luke :)
The board I want is designed to run on 18650 or 26650 batteries (very
similar to a UPS configuration) and have capacitive touch LCDs.
Its just right for building a million dollar 6 petabyte SSD server that
fits in a space of 2 cubic meters or thereabouts consuming 10kW.
You may not want to believe all that right now.. :)

no i get it - i added up once how many CPU Cards you could get into a
single rack-mount space, it was absolutely mad.

l.

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[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
The board I want is designed to run on 18650 or 26650 batteries (very
similar to a UPS configuration) and have capacitive touch LCDs.
Its just right for building a million dollar 6 petabyte SSD server that
fits in a space of 2 cubic meters or thereabouts consuming 10kW.
You may not want to believe all that right now.. :)

no i get it - i added up once how many CPU Cards you could get into a
single rack-mount space, it was absolutely mad.

Its how to wire all that that is difficult.

I'm building a hypercube (with emphasis on hype :) ) with extravagantly
lit LED conduits for the wiring to be passed through to reach all
computing elements in a 3D mesh. The idea being if all is well, the
conduits are a pleasant colour while if there are problem, the conduits
light the way to the problem areas.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
no i get it - i added up once how many CPU Cards you could get into a
single rack-mount space, it was absolutely mad.

Its how to wire all that that is difficult.
I'm building a hypercube (with emphasis on hype :) ) with extravagantly
lit LED conduits for the wiring to be passed through to reach all
computing elements in a 3D mesh. The idea being if all is well, the
conduits are a pleasant colour while if there are problem, the conduits
light the way to the problem areas.

niiice.

btw do consider this as well, it expands up to infinite size:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonblocking_minimal_spanning_switch

assuming a 2-bar crossbar as the "base unit", basically to create the
next power of 2 up, you:

* duplicate the entire network of switches made so far
* put them side-by-side
* put in another "layer"
* connect every ODD numbered output from the last of the old layers
"straight through"
* connect every EVEN numbered output to a port CROSS-WISE by adding
N/2 to its port number

(N is obviously the current total number of inputs and outputs)

if you have a 4-port router then obviously you would quadruplicate the
entire network so far, then connect the first one straight, the second
one increase the port number by (N/4), the third by (N/4)*2, the
fourth by (N/4)*3

if you have a 32-port hub as the base unit you could go straight to
32x32 nodes (1024) with only 2 layers.

i pretty much guarantee though that regardless of what you do, you'll
end up with more wires and more network switches than anything else :)

l.

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