[Arm-netbook] Question about money raised by crowdfunding campaign / achieving the goal

[Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo]

Hi,

There has been a bump in the last few hours and the campaing went up to
over 70k, yay \o/


Reading the article on liliputing [1], I saw this, which surprised me:

"The campaign has raised over $60,000 so far, which is less than half
way to the goal of $150,000. But Leighton tells me that if he raises
around $100,000 he expects to be able to begin production of the items
people are ordering: the higher dollar amount was chosen under the
assumption that more people would be making pledges for higher-priced
items."


But my understanding of how crowdsupply works is that they only get the
money from the pledges if the campaign goal is achieved.

As an example, and again "AFAIUI", if the campaign had been set up so
that there was a "base goal" of 70k$ and one or several "stretch goals"
up to 150k, the money would have been collected at this very moment
(when it just reached 70k); but as things stand with how the campaign
was set up, it's an all-or-nothing at 150k.


So, in the case that the goal is not achieved, what's the plan to begin
production if the money cannot be collected?


Cheers.


[1] http://liliputing.com/2016/08/new-options-added-emoa68-pc-card-crowdfunding-campaign.html

[Xavi Drudis Ferran]

Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
So, in the case that the goal is not achieved, what's the plan to begin
production if the money cannot be collected?

I think there's not plan yet. The only sure plan is if it makes
150000$ production should start. If it reaches less it might or might
not depending on the rewards claimed and the cost of producing that.

http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2016-August/011499.html
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2016-August/011530.html

Strictly speaking the deal was that nobody pays unless they
collectively pay 150000$, but then it depends on whether the claimed
items can or cannot be produced with the pledged amount in the end. If
they can't be produced, then it seems obvious that they won't. If they
can be produced with the available money, then either crowdsupply is
strict and declares the campaign failed or they arrange some change of
goal or something and collect the money as long as Luke will have
agreed to provide the rewards with the money raised. Worse case
crowdsupply does not collect the money and Luke sets up a new campaign
with the goals closer to what has been achieved in the end. The
problem there would be if the campaign had to take 2 more months and
that would delay the project, maybe cause scheduling problems or
higher costs... But if the new campaign can last one week or two, and
all backers are contacted, and the same rewards are offered at the
same pledge amounts, I doubt many if any backers would not join the
"new" campaign. Since that seems logical, and it's hard to argue that
most backers pledged because of the 150000$ goal instead of because of
the reward and its associated pledge amount, which they could get despite the
150000$, it does not seem too likely that crowdsupply even requires
this second campaign. But I'm not Luke, I'm not crowdsupply... I don't
know.

As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type.
For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe
18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would
mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).

The non recurring costs are possibly estimated so that those 100000 $
you quoted would pay the cost of producing the rewards currently
pledged for, but nobody knows what will the people ask for in the end,
so it is premature to evaluate.


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[Muhammed Adel Afzal]

Hi Luke,

With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop? I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.

Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?

Adel

Muhammed Adel Afzal
Barrister and Solicitor, Notary Public

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop?

should be okay

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.

good idea - bear in mind though that with this design you'll need to
be careful doing that as it's built-in, it's not a removable design.
plug / socket inside the case.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?

it's a chicony keyboard for an asus 15.6in laptop - P/Ns are on here:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/

it's pretty good. full-sized keys. there's also an update coming
out in the next couple of days, albert kindly demo'd the AZERTY
keyboard firmware he's been working on.

l.

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[Muhammed Adel Afzal]

Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.

Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement? I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?

Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?

Adel

Muhammed Adel Afzal
Barrister and Solicitor, Notary Public

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" <***@lkcl.net>
To: "Linux on small ARM machines" <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:46:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] battery and keyboard

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop?

should be okay

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.

good idea - bear in mind though that with this design you'll need to
be careful doing that as it's built-in, it's not a removable design.
plug / socket inside the case.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?

it's a chicony keyboard for an asus 15.6in laptop - P/Ns are on here:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/

it's pretty good. full-sized keys. there's also an update coming
out in the next couple of days, albert kindly demo'd the AZERTY
keyboard firmware he's been working on.

l.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?

yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them,
the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be
*real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the
tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?

yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or
one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm
using a logitech K400r you can look that up

or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external
battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll
be fine.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?

it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework
designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch
is an easy enough task.

l.

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[Russell Hyer]

Hi Luke,

It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The
issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that
they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if
memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech
website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds
awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only
actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and
Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in
the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact
with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the
issue).

Thanks,

Russell
If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought
that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?

yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them,
the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be
*real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the
tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am
working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a
keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer
card, right?

yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or
one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm
using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external
battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll
be fine.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect
the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making
instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?

it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework
designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch
is an easy enough task.
l.
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[Russell Hyer]

And sorry for the non-free link here, but this is just to back up my
earlier point. So here's the link:

http://support.logitech.com/en_us/software/unifying

True, it runs on 2.4GHz radio, so you could reverse engineer it if you
were bored for a month. But, as you can see the software itself
(which controls the pairing options if you want to use a different
receiver, or fix issues) only "works" on W'doze.

HTH,

Thanks

Russell

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The
issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that
they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if
memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech
website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds
awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only
actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and
Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in
the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact
with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the
issue).
Thanks,
Russell
If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought
that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?

yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them,
the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be
*real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the
tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am
working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a
keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer
card, right?

yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or
one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm
using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external
battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll
be fine.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect
the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making
instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?

it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework
designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch
is an easy enough task.
l.
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[Tarak]

Actually, there is a Chrome browser add-on that lets you do this as well. I
do it all the time on my chrome OS devices

-Joe

Post by Russell Hyer
And sorry for the non-free link here, but this is just to back up my
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/software/unifying
True, it runs on 2.4GHz radio, so you could reverse engineer it if you
were bored for a month. But, as you can see the software itself
(which controls the pairing options if you want to use a different
receiver, or fix issues) only "works" on W'doze.
HTH,
Thanks
Russell

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The
issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that
they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if
memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech
website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds
awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only
actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and
Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in
the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact
with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the
issue).
Thanks,
Russell
If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought
that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?

yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them,
the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be
*real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the
tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am
working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a
keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer
card, right?

yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or
one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm
using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external
battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll
be fine.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect
the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making
instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?

it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework
designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch
is an easy enough task.
l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers.

probably! don't honestly know, too busy to check (sorry!) i'm
mentioning it to illustrate the multi-HID USB endpoint feature rather
than anything else, which means that you can plug in only 1 USB...
"thing" in order to use 2 "devices". there's almost certainly wired
variants of the exact same thing, the point is: with these types of
mulit-usb-endpoint devices you don't need to plug in a USB hub into
the OTG socket.

l.

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[Xavi Drudis Ferran]

Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type.
For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe
18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would
mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).

Nah, scratch that. It's not on track for 250 MOQ of each, it's already reached
(and on track for more).




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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran

Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type.
For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe
18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would
mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).

Nah, scratch that. It's not on track for 250 MOQ of each, it's already reached
(and on track for more).

there's been a steady increase of pledge for about the past 36 hours.... ah ha!
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-candidate-for-respects-your-freedom-certification

that'll be why :)

l.

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[Robert Wilkinson]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
there's been a steady increase of pledge for about the past 36 hours.... ah ha!
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-candidate-for-respects-your-freedom-certification
that'll be why :)
l.

I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about
pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.

However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping /
$10 Worldwide.

Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay
for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company,
and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...

Bob

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Robert Wilkinson
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about
pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping /
$10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay
for shipping to the UK.

because of totally different taxation and government setup. chris
explained this to me in great detail as he has a UK-based distribution
centre and, shockingly, the cost per item in bureaucracy and taxation
is greater than the cost of a good proportion of the items that he
sells.

whilst i really don't like the word because i had no idea, growing up
in the UK, quite how "Socialist" the UK really is, the UK and other EU
countries really ARE extremely "Socialist". "Free" health-care.
"Free" dole money. "Free" state pensions... they're not... but they
all have to be paid for.... and they're paid for by increasing
taxation, and that means adding on import taxes and VAT.

by total contrast chris has to pay for and take direct responsibility
for EVERYTHING himself.... but the advantage is: the cost of importing
into the USA is a one-off $200 fee spread out across the entire
consignment. as these are "components" and "kits" there isn't even
any import duty (or, it's zero-rated).

it's radically different in other words.

Post by Robert Wilkinson
I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company,

it's not - and never will be. it was registered as a CIC a few years
ago but my associates (who it turns out are pathologically only
interested in profit - good thing i found that out eh?) shut it down
without informing or consulting me.

i'll re-establish the CIC later. if you're not familiar with why
Corporations are pathologically dangerous, look up the online
documentary, "The Corporation". you need only listen to the premise
which is covered in the first few minutes.

Post by Robert Wilkinson
and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...

i'm an international traveller, i'm currently in Keene, NH. i'll go
where i'm needed most. that means going to china and keeping an eye
on things as they're manufactured. it'll be fun. i'll also be able
to take pictures and videos and keep people posted.

l.

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[m016fec3]

I my view, it makes no sense at this moment to speculate abaout what
will happen, if the goal of the crowfunding campaign is not reached. I
am sure, that Luke will prepaire the next steps, if that is the case.

One should put all the energy in spreading the word about the EOMA68
until the end of the campaign.

Wolfgang

[David Boddie]

Post by Robert Wilkinson
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about
pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping /
$10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay
for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company,
and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...

I expect that Crowd Supply is handling the logistics of shipping:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics

I've paid more than $10 for shipping from the US so it didn't worry me too
much, though I can understand why it might seem a bit strange.

David

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[m016fec3]

I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

Wolfgang

Post by David Boddie

Post by Robert Wilkinson
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about
pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping /
$10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay
for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company,
and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...

https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics
I've paid more than $10 for shipping from the US so it didn't worry me too
much, though I can understand why it might seem a bit strange.
David
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[Wolfram Kahl]

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop,
a breakout board, and a cable set, it says:

| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.

And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the
micro-desktop alone.

This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items
from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting
more for moral support reasons), and get the cables elsewhere:
I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set
as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege
of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong,
because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes,
and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)




Wolfram

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by Wolfram Kahl

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop,
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the
micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items
from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting
I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set
as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege
of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong,
because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes,
and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)

due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East
(because of import duties, VAT @ 20%, and import surcharges) we're
going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a
distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one*
one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being
"parts" and "kits".

from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive
outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of
our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced
people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct
experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and
thinkpenguin) definitely do.

my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal
shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were
something mad like $75.

now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience -
of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+
different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not*
result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to
Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is
covered with the exception of Antarctica!

because then we can look at it.

but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too
high, ok! :)

another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less
costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out
without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any
money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're
presenting are better funded.

viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational,
but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an
*idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale.
this is "gift economy".

if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've
misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full
refund.

l.

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[Hrvoje Lasic]

You could also check cost from China directly for all countries outside us.

You can check similar postage cost from aliexpress but if i remember
correctly I pay about 40 to 60 usd for similar packages to eu. In china dhl
is least expensive by my experience.

You could also try normal post but it sometimes fails.

Brasil looks expensive usually from China.

India, you have to be careful who are you using as if government controls
company (i.e ems) it takes really long time and hussle with customs. Dhl
works ok.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Wolfram Kahl

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop,
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the

United States.

Post by Wolfram Kahl
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for

the

Post by Wolfram Kahl
micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items
from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting
I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set
as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the

privilege

Post by Wolfram Kahl
of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong,
because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes,
and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!''

;-)
due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East
going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a
distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one*
one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being
"parts" and "kits".
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive
outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of
our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced
people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct
experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and
thinkpenguin) definitely do.
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal
shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were
something mad like $75.
now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience -
of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+
different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not*
result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to
Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is
covered with the exception of Antarctica!
because then we can look at it.
but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too
high, ok! :)
another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less
costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out
without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any
money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're
presenting are better funded.
viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational,
but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an
*idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale.
this is "gift economy".
if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've
misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full
refund.
l.
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Hrvoje Lasić
Vulpes d.o.o.
Gračanska 120a
10000 Zagreb
Croatia
tel [phone]
tel [phone]


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[Wolfram Kahl]

Hi Luke,

I didn't mean to be confrontational, and even included a smiley in
an attempt to document that. ;-)

I wasn't arguing at all against your choice of the US as shipping hub;
you discussed that before. Instead I was trying to get more attention
the point that Wolfgang had raised, and that I havven't seen really

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive
outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of
our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced
people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct
experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and
thinkpenguin) definitely do.

I can perfectly take that for an answer, but I probably am not alone

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal
shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were
something mad like $75.

Now if you had had them send you two 40 gram Computer Cards in a single
package, would you have been happy to pay $150 for that,
even though you accepted to pay $75 for the single card?
From my experience with DHL etc., I would expect the two cards to cost
the same $75, since they fit into the same (rather oversized...) envelope.


Perhaps more directly relevant to the project, I was trying to make
the following argument: If shipping costs for multiple items
can be reduced, then people outside the US will likely order
more of the small items together with the cards and micro-desktops.


Cheers!

Wolfram


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[Christopher Havel]

Luke, can you ship through the US Postal Service? They offer international
shipping, and the (admittedly few) times I've used International Priority
Mail, it's beaten the crap out of FedEx/UPS/etc pricing.

Sure, it takes about three weeks to get anywhere, but it comes with
tracking and a guaranteed delivered-by date (which is more than you get
with International First Class -- on both counts -- although I've heard you
can get tracking with First Class if you ask them to do it Registered...
that's not confirmed tho).

Not to mention that you'd probably qualify for the USPS' "bulk mailer"
(read: junk mail) rates, at the package quantities you're dealing with. I'm
definitely no expert in that but I can sort of read regulationspeak and
legalese, if it's any help, since Mom is a retired attorney -- I was her
research assistant for a few years...

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Hi Luke,
I didn't mean to be confrontational, and even included a smiley in
an attempt to document that. ;-)

thxman. doing too much, here. nights are... rough.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
I wasn't arguing at all against your choice of the US as shipping hub;
you discussed that before. Instead I was trying to get more attention
the point that Wolfgang had raised, and that I havven't seen really

... i forget whom i've repeated things to, it's been so many times

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive
outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of
our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced
people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct
experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and
thinkpenguin) definitely do.

I can perfectly take that for an answer, but I probably am not alone

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal
shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were
something mad like $75.

Now if you had had them send you two 40 gram Computer Cards in a single
package, would you have been happy to pay $150 for that,
even though you accepted to pay $75 for the single card?
From my experience with DHL etc., I would expect the two cards to cost
the same $75, since they fit into the same (rather oversized...) envelope.

... because they go approximately in 0.5kg increments, yes.

no, for the "budget" international shipping they go strictly by
weight. yes you can put 2 computer cards into a bag and it will weigh
less than 2 bags + 2 computer cards... but not a lot less.

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Perhaps more directly relevant to the project, I was trying to make
the following argument: If shipping costs for multiple items
can be reduced, then people outside the US will likely order
more of the small items together with the cards and micro-desktops.

honestly i'm inclined to trust the experience of both thinkpenguin
and crowdsupply, both of whom have an extraordinarily large amount of
experience with world-wide shipping costs. crowdsupply's numbers are
*average* numbers not actual costs. certain locations will be lower
cost, others will be so ridiculous you'd be hard pressed to believe
it. certainly i know that chris knows (and we do as well, way back
when arm-netbook ml started up) that stuff sent to italy has a
tendency to... disappear. you do *NOT* send stuff to italy that is by
standard international post, even if it is insured. it just...
doesn't arrive - period. so you have to send it by courier.

honestly i have so much to deal with already i'm inclined to just
hand it off to crowdsupply and say, "here - you deal with it" - that's
one of the key reasons why i picked them, so that that can be done.
luckily though my sponsor thinkpenguin deal with USPS and
International Shipping all the time.

we'll sort it out.

l.

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[Muhammed Adel Afzal]

If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?

Adel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" <***@lkcl.net>
To: "Linux on small ARM machines" <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:46:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Shipping costs

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Wolfram Kahl

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop,
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the
micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items
from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting
I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set
as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege
of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong,
because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes,
and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)

due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East
(because of import duties, VAT @ 20%, and import surcharges) we're
going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a
distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one*
one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being
"parts" and "kits".

from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive
outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of
our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced
people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct
experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and
thinkpenguin) definitely do.

my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal
shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were
something mad like $75.

now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience -
of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+
different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not*
result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to
Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is
covered with the exception of Antarctica!

because then we can look at it.

but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too
high, ok! :)

another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less
costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out
without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any
money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're
presenting are better funded.

viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational,
but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an
*idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale.
this is "gift economy".

if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've
misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full
refund.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@files.phcomp.co.uk

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?

i'll be making absolutely sure that everything works before they go
out, and then make absolutely sure that they're packed carefully as
well. bear in mind that the laptop is a kit! as this is not a
"business" - there's going to be barely enough cash to get things to
everybody - we can't offer a warranty unless i added something like an
extra 20% on top of the existing pledge levels in order to have
sufficient spare cash to be able to order a set of spares, and if we
did that chances would be high that people went "yikes that's way too
much!!" and we would automatically have less backers... thus risk not
reaching the MOQs.

if we were set up as an established business - or if we had even one
extra sponsor willing to full-time fund the project with an extra...
say... $5,000 to $10,000 over the course of the past 2 years, this
would be a radically different proposition. we would have had enough
cash to create full working prototypes, to present them to the FSF and
get the RYF Certification in advance, for example. the videos that
we've done would have been with fully-working prototypes. i would
have been able to show people those prototypes at hopeconf 2016 in
NYC, and much much more.

instead we're juust about managing, which is in many ways a good
thing because you can be absolutely certain that we're not spending
money frivolously! it's a bit seat-of-the-pants but i'm happy with
the way things have turned out.

l.

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[Muhammed Adel Afzal]

Round one: seat of the pants. And after that, hopefully an increasingly successful business. Good luck Luke.

Adel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" <***@lkcl.net>
To: "Linux on small ARM machines" <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:42:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Shipping costs

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?

i'll be making absolutely sure that everything works before they go
out, and then make absolutely sure that they're packed carefully as
well. bear in mind that the laptop is a kit! as this is not a
"business" - there's going to be barely enough cash to get things to
everybody - we can't offer a warranty unless i added something like an
extra 20% on top of the existing pledge levels in order to have
sufficient spare cash to be able to order a set of spares, and if we
did that chances would be high that people went "yikes that's way too
much!!" and we would automatically have less backers... thus risk not
reaching the MOQs.

if we were set up as an established business - or if we had even one
extra sponsor willing to full-time fund the project with an extra...
say... $5,000 to $10,000 over the course of the past 2 years, this
would be a radically different proposition. we would have had enough
cash to create full working prototypes, to present them to the FSF and
get the RYF Certification in advance, for example. the videos that
we've done would have been with fully-working prototypes. i would
have been able to show people those prototypes at hopeconf 2016 in
NYC, and much much more.

instead we're juust about managing, which is in many ways a good
thing because you can be absolutely certain that we're not spending
money frivolously! it's a bit seat-of-the-pants but i'm happy with
the way things have turned out.

l.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
Round one: seat of the pants.

.... yeah :)

Post by Muhammed Adel Afzal
And after that, hopefully an increasingly successful business. Good luck Luke.

thx adel.

l.

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[m016fec3]

Now I understand and accept, what shipping costs means: It is not the
actuall shiping cost for delivering the goods to my home, but my pledge
to make worldwide shipping possible. In some countries these cost are
lower and in others they are higher.

So people in contries, where the actual shipping costs are higher, are
able to pledge and the EOMA68 can get a foodhold in these countries too.

I was misled by the term shipping cost and as I don't want to give more
than the neccessary money to the delivering firm, I thought, bundeling
would make it cheaper. So maybe CrowdSupply should make that clearer,

Wolfgang

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by m016fec3
Now I understand and accept, what shipping costs means: It is not the
actuall shiping cost for delivering the goods to my home, but my pledge
to make worldwide shipping possible. In some countries these cost are
lower and in others they are higher.

yes.

Post by m016fec3
So people in contries, where the actual shipping costs are higher, are
able to pledge and the EOMA68 can get a foodhold in these countries too.

correct.

Post by m016fec3
I was misled by the term shipping cost and as I don't want to give more
than the neccessary money to the delivering firm, I thought, bundeling
would make it cheaper.

it doesn't

Post by m016fec3
So maybe CrowdSupply should make that clearer,

yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put
on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have
to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?

l.

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[Christian Kellermann]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put
on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have
to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?

solidarity supplement to shipping and handling ?

Cheers,

Christian

--
May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from
suffering, and may you live with ease.

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[Robert Wilkinson]

Post by Christian Kellermann

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put
on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have
to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?

solidarity supplement to shipping and handling ?
Cheers,
Christian
--
May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from
suffering, and may you live with ease.

I think that I was confused because the shipping was free to the USA
- had their been a global flat rate, I would probably not have
questioned the cost.

However, this does rather beg the question as to why residents of
the USA should not show solidarity with the residents of (arguably
less affluent) other countries ... But, perhaps, that is for another
day :-)

Bob

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Robert Wilkinson
I think that I was confused because the shipping was free to the USA
- had their been a global flat rate, I would probably not have
questioned the cost.
However, this does rather beg the question as to why residents of
the USA should not show solidarity with the residents of (arguably
less affluent) other countries ... But, perhaps, that is for another
day :-)

very good point!!

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[David Boddie]

Post by m016fec3
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have
them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the
shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been
sent seperately?

I think so, but note that the handling fees are only charged for each
package so, while the total for shipping is probably a multiple of $10 for
the number of items shipped, you only pay the handling fees once.

However, maybe the specific details are different for this campaign. I was
just reading from the following page and seeing what happens when I add and
remove items from the checkout.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics

David

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