[Arm-netbook] Improv And Operation:Marketing for EMOA-*

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

well the problem is that they didn't keep us informed of numbers, as
they came in. we therefore lost face with our large client (the
factory in china) because we had to give them excuses instead of an
order that was promised.

four months in, after asking many many times we find that they had
10% of expected orders, which they could have informed us of within
the first 4 weeks not after 4 months.

after apologising deeply to our embarrassed factory, whom we had gone
to extraordinary lengths to arrange an order of only 2500 units (they
normally deal with minimum 10 to 50k runs, their machines have a
capacity of 20 million units a week so this is a huge favour they were
doing us), we found an alternative factory, on very short notice, who
could do 500 units of the PCBs.

... three weeks later, complete silence..

my business partner has therefore permanently crossed them off of our
client list - he was very pissed. i don't have control over what
decisions he makes.

It's just, I've been trying to work on my Operation: Marketing (Op:Mark)
but with this sad news I've not sure which direction to go.

if we receive orders, we can place the order with the factory.
everything is set up for that.

http://rhombus-tech.net/op:marketing

thanks alexander - i'll take a look.

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-20 15:09:01 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

well the problem is that they didn't keep us informed of numbers, as

This is not accurate, but I'm not going to get into details of what was a
series of private conversations, most of which Luke was not even involved
with, in public. I like to think I have slightly better judgment than that. :/

--
Aaron J. Seigo
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 16:10:18 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

well the problem is that they didn't keep us informed of numbers, as

This is not accurate,

ok. let me be more specific. you did not keep us informed of
numbers within a reasonable time-frame. delays of several weeks
before responding with a status update is, i believe, reasonable to
summarise as "not keeping us informed of numbers".

if you had advised us immediately that you only had 200 to 250 units
after one month when we requested after one month that you inform us
of numbers, we would have had time to do something.

but you did not respond to my associate's request.

he had to ask several times. each time you did not respond.

eventually after several months we received a response. by then it
was too late.

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
but I'm not going to get into details of what was a
series of private conversations,

which my associate kept me appraised of, as you may not be aware that
i speak with him nearly every day. aaron: if you genuinely had kept
my associate informed, providing him the status updates he requested
when he requested them, we would not be having this conversation. we
would have been able to do something.

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-20 17:01:41 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok. let me be more specific.

*sigh* Again, not accurate in the least, but I'm not having this conversation
here.

Please, Luke, respect that. I'm only responding at all because I'm not OK with
such misinformation about my person in public. I am not going to drag anyone
else (e.g. you) through the mud (deserving or not) or get into a useless
argument over the details of something that can not at this point be undone.
I'd appreciate a similar amount of respect shown from you in the name of
civility and, well, professionalism.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 19:11:36 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok. let me be more specific.

*sigh* Again, not accurate in the least,

i think the only thing i can say at this point is this: that you can
repeat that belief helps to explain why my associate made the decision
to blacklist you.

l.

joem

2014-05-21 08:21:32 UTC

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
Please, Luke, respect

<jaw drops>

http://liliputing.com/2014/05/novena-open-laptop-raises-700-thousand-crowdfunding.html

Its even got a deluxe rod end bearing to prop its door open :(

The stereo speakers are mounted side by side (at last) :( :(

</jaw drops>

Acquired four 3D printers in the last few weeks.
One of them is the Formlabs laser curing device with
25 micron resolution and the other 3 are fdm printers.
Driving it with openscad making boxes,
helical gears, tapered screws, jaw grips,
etc - all the things mechanical engineers take years to
to learn to design and manufacture cut short to a few
days, and built from scratch, thanks to 3D printers
and open scad scripts.

Also notice freecad 0.13 is nothing like its predecessors.
It can do operations along prescribed paths
(something which openscad lacks at the moment), and there
is a (hacked) way to do assemblies.
Wings3D is also fantastic, and meshlab takes cares of
checking the STL to get objects into printable state.

So who needs open source parametric case designed in openscad?
and 3D samples of it printed?

It should be possible to print 3 cases per day small
production runs and evolve the case design to something
respectable in weeks.

Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

2014-05-23 14:49:22 UTC

Post by joem

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
Please, Luke, respect

Marketing marketing marketing marketing and promotion

bunny has:
*a good flowing on his blog. hes famous for xbox reverse engineering
*updates are posted in (one) place thats easy to see and read, theres a
comfortable writing style and flowing text.
*there is no "politics" like there is with eoma-* and software
freedom. techys hate anything with/about politics, My conclusion is
techys hate it because they do
not like emotional difficult/painful things and avoid them. if it makes
them making difficult decisions or puts what they do as negative or be a
source of conflict.
*bunny has only mentioned acceptable amounts of software freedom related
stuff and
when he has, it's been techy acceptable format. In the context of being
able to change every thing, non-free bits would be limiting and so
frustrating.
*the product is for enthusiasts by enthusiasts, hmm - peer group.
* note it's also a board, not some fancy upgradable thing that has a
chance of only doing one or 2 products and dyeing, = risk in there minds
and unnecessary compromises or something. the normal way is tried and
tested. I feel more confitable with the average norm.

*techeys see eoma-68 as limiting. what no ffpga! what 1ess usb!, not
many gpi's! they don't get it and nor do they like the thought of "things
getting in the way". things like
cubieboards, olimex boards fit there mind set. they don't get the big
picture. they don't get that most of the features they want can be had.
I expect theres more they don't get.

It's a big sign that there is a problem with what info there is easily
available about eoma-*. I've also mad mistakes in my few discussions.
sorry. I know your all busy busy busy. you need others who get it to
help. which this newbie trying to do but my progress is very slow. I
could do with help from others on the side line too :)

Disclaimer: Please note this post is my opinion, a fat amount of what I
have written is my conclusions based on chats I've had with a few
techys! just covering my self.

Post by joem
It should be possible to print 3 cases per day small
production runs and evolve the case design to something
respectable in weeks.

sounds great!

finally one more email out of my drafts :)

neal

2014-05-23 15:02:44 UTC

Let's also note he aimed for a higher priced specialty market. His prices were so high he could do it in small run and didn't need to attract the same volume. If people are willing to pay $500-$2000 the whole manufacturing equation changes. This way you can do small runs and pay a lot of NRE and still be viable.

I wouldn't have thought you could find even the hundreds needed at those kinds of prices. I guess I was wrong. I'm sure as you mention his following and reputation were a big part of this.

So kudos to him, I don't think a lot of us could have had the same success in getting people to buy at those prices.

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross <maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me>
To: Linux on small ARM machines <arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, 23 May 2014 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Improv And Operation:Marketing for EMOA-*

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Hash: SHA1

Post by joem

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
Please, Luke, respect

Post by joem
It should be possible to print 3 cases per day small
production runs and evolve the case design to something
respectable in weeks.

sounds great!

finally one more email out of my drafts :)
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Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

2014-05-23 15:19:51 UTC

Post by neal
Let's also note he aimed for a higher priced specialty market. His prices were so high he could do it in small run and didn't need to attract the same volume. If people are willing to pay $500-$2000 the whole manufacturing equation changes. This way you can do small runs and pay a lot of NRE and still be viable.
I wouldn't have thought you could find even the hundreds needed at those kinds of prices. I guess I was wrong. I'm sure as you mention his following and reputation were a big part of this.

no he woundn't have got hundreds of orders, but didn't he get a few
hundred not 230ish? it helped, that was all I was saying. I'm noooo
expert but a bloody newbie. I could do with a less, err, umm,
"asserting" writing style, again please help me.

Post by neal
So kudos to him, I don't think a lot of us could have had the same success in getting people to buy at those prices.

oh yes well done to him, hes made some good hardware but like I said a
completely differ market.

Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

2014-05-20 15:54:43 UTC

I guess it's a tragic case of them (mpl) feeling down and lack
motivation/stressed, etc, sad & sad that it's cost us the nice factory
but oh well. moving on....

Operation Savage
what does this mean for the tablet? do you have access to the designs,
if so all or some? Could it be savaged?

So to confirm. What would this product be?

Is this the dead simple to make board the exposes the interfaces? Could
we have a improved interfaces expose board?

What about calling it the "Expose" or BodgeIt or ...?

* More compact like the Improv? I'd love the eoma-68 card to go
underneath the Expose
- -* ...and even better for the Expose to be the the same dimensions as
the emoa-68 card.
* I'd appreciate a built-in tiny 4 port usb hub
* Flexable power circuity with monitoring. So one can use batteryâs and
the system will know there status.
* built in or external addon board for battery charging li-* or other
battery types? (I just want easy way of adding a battery and for my
system to know when it's low. it might be a 12v battery powering other
stuff (ie on my camera rig, 12v bat powering my external little 12vlcd
for my camera) or heck ni-cd or Li-*. There's microUPS, but thats on the
big side and is via a serial interface
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/microups-for-raspberry-beaglebone-cubieboard
)

* Audio out and/or Headphone Out
* bonus: audio inputs like mic and line in but if there going to be
nosiey things then they don't matter

but for audio that means usb audio or the multi-job ardunio-like chip,
so what about including the multi-job ardunio-like chip, and have it
available to provide some extra options? I don't know. or do you just
include a 5 or 6 port ultra compact usb hub instead? hmm

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 16:12:59 UTC

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

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I guess it's a tragic case of them (mpl) feeling down and lack
motivation/stressed, etc, sad & sad that it's cost us the nice factory
but oh well. moving on....

well... i'm not sure you understand the implications. without that
factory's resources there really is no project.

Operation Savage
what does this mean for the tablet? do you have access to the designs,
if so all or some? Could it be savaged?

we need money, it's quite simple. i can then send the design off to
a prototyping house, get one made up and tested, and we can carry on.

so this is why i am in holland earning money. until i have money,
the project is shelved. find the money, the project is not shelved.

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-20 16:54:39 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so this is why i am in holland earning money. until i have money,
the project is shelved. find the money, the project is not shelved.

money and time. the first run at the tablet was projected to take a number of
months from where everything was at the time and ended up taking a year and
still not having all hardware design complete. unless something has changed in
the meantime, i'd expect to face similar time constraints with another go-
around ... even if the official answer given is "oh, no time at all!" (been
there..)

Boris Barbour

2014-05-20 16:59:53 UTC

Apologies if this turns out to be a stupid suggestion.

Calculations for prototypes have so far been based on runs of O(100)
fully assembled boards. Would there be any possibility of paying for a
handful of PCBs, a couple of sets of components (farnell, RS, digikey)
and finding a volunteer with some equipment to assemble by hand (paste,
oven, ...)?

I'm no expert (it probably shows), but the board doesn't seem hyper
dense in terms of components. Of course, there would be no econmoies of
scale at all, but it might provide an affordable way of inching past the
all-important debugging and validation stages.

Best wishes

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
we need money, it's quite simple. i can then send the design off to
a prototyping house, get one made up and tested, and we can carry on.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 19:16:08 UTC

Post by Boris Barbour
Apologies if this turns out to be a stupid suggestion.
Calculations for prototypes have so far been based on runs of O(100) fully
assembled boards. Would there be any possibility of paying for a handful of
PCBs, a couple of sets of components (farnell, RS, digikey)

yes of course (except some of them are only available from china, but
that's ok)

Post by Boris Barbour
and finding a
volunteer with some equipment to assemble by hand (paste, oven, ...)?

if they're prepared to do it, yes. there are however quite a lot of
components, they're quite small, but it is doable.

Post by Boris Barbour
I'm no expert (it probably shows), but the board doesn't seem hyper dense in
terms of components.

it is, but there's nothing smaller than 0402. the smallest drill
sizes are i think 7mil, but there are not many of those (they're for
the Micro-HDMI)

Post by Boris Barbour
Of course, there would be no econmoies of scale at all,
but it might provide an affordable way of inching past the all-important
debugging and validation stages.

we achieved that 100% debugging and validation phase back in i think
it was october of last year.

so we are talking about fully-tested, fully working hardware that is
ready to go into larger production runs for clients.

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-20 19:34:41 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
we achieved that 100% debugging and validation phase back in i think
it was october of last year.
so we are talking about fully-tested, fully working hardware that is
ready to go into larger production runs for clients.

Sorry - I didn't realise it had progressed quite that far.

It's a crying shame how difficult it is to find arm laptops (also
tablets and of course phones) to run debian* without jumping through
hoops. The chromebooks show that it is entirely possible, but there are
always driver problems, you can't install natively, etc. I really like
the eoma idea.

Anyway, I'd be a customer of the first products.

*distribution of your choice

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 19:56:08 UTC

Sorry - I didn't realise it had progressed quite that far.

yes! that's why we entered into an agreement with aaron's company
that they would order 2500 units.

Post by Boris Barbour
It's a crying shame how difficult it is to find arm laptops (also tablets
and of course phones) to run debian* without jumping through hoops.

... and with the eoma idea, it's not just solved once and can be
inserted into multiple devices and *still* you only had the porting to
do just the once, but also the kernel infrastructure needed to support
multiple devices actually makes it easier to port to the next CPU card
as well.

Post by Boris Barbour
The
chromebooks show that it is entirely possible, but there are always driver
problems, you can't install natively, etc. I really like the eoma idea.
Anyway, I'd be a customer of the first products.

... please put your name down on the list at the preorders page, so
that when it happens - once i have enough money to get the prototypes
done without relying on other people - it's possible to let you know.

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-20 20:21:44 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... please put your name down on the list at the preorders page, so
that when it happens - once i have enough money to get the prototypes
done without relying on other people - it's possible to let you know.

Done, although for some reason it appears as a separate page
rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/boris
rather than on the main list. Basically, I'm up for anything that can
make a working product without too much construction or hacking. Amounts
are advisory - I'd be excited if it really could work.

I guess a mini-fanless-desktop would be least bother to design (in fact,
is there anything to do?).

I wonder if it would be possible to repurpose older laptop cases.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 20:32:45 UTC

Done, although for some reason it appears as a separate page

... if you go one level down you will see the complete list.

Post by Boris Barbour
rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/boris
rather than on the main list. Basically, I'm up for anything that can make a
working product without too much construction or hacking. Amounts are
advisory - I'd be excited if it really could work.
I guess a mini-fanless-desktop would be least bother to design (in fact, is
there anything to do?).

not a lot - i have the design already done as a 1st prototype.
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/mini_desktop/news/

Post by Boris Barbour
I wonder if it would be possible to repurpose older laptop cases.

that's one of the ideas that's been considered, although it is a hell
of a lot of work. apart from anything, as the bloom laptop team found
out it takes two professors and an entire team of students *over two
hours* to work out how to disassemble standard laptops into their 140+
constituent parts.

l.

Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross

2014-05-20 18:07:18 UTC

Opps just see aarons 2 replys before I did my post. apologises about
what I err umm wrote,assumed,etc in my prev post as I didn't see them
before I sent my post.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-20 15:06:43 UTC

Post by Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross
If there was late help from extra individuals marketing and promoting
eoma-* standard devices like Improv and there were magically the number
of pre-orders needed would it be possible to resume makeplaylive being a
client?

I would happily support this; as it is, orders are simply coming in far too
slow, and are virtually non-existent from the eoma fan-club.

Post by Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross
I expect they are stuffed when they can't even mention eoma-68!

If there was promotional value in doing so or if there was an ecosystem around
eoma-68, we would certainly do so. Unfortunately there isn't, and there has
been very little demonstrated interest in addressing that.

Wookey

2014-05-20 23:22:23 UTC

I would happily support this; as it is, orders are simply coming in far too
slow, and are virtually non-existent from the eoma fan-club.

Hmm. I was expecting a plasma tablet announcment at some point, based
on eoma-68, but apparently something has gone wrong and that's now not
happenning? Is that right? I feel like I've missed some important
information (although I did notice this list go very quiet).

Is there going ot be a plasma tabet at some point? I have a use for one...

In the meantime my playslive card is handy, but I'm somewhat stalled
on mailine sunxi support, which is coming, slowly.

I know these things are difficult - I was quite impressed that we got
this far. On the other hand, having got this far it seemed likely that
we would get further too...

Wookey

--
Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-20 23:38:25 UTC

Post by Wookey

I would happily support this; as it is, orders are simply coming in far too
slow, and are virtually non-existent from the eoma fan-club.

Hmm. I was expecting a plasma tablet announcment at some point, based
on eoma-68, but apparently something has gone wrong and that's now not
happenning?

aaron kindly funded the prototype development, based on the
specifications that i gave him. he agreed to those specifications but
it became clear later that he may not have thought through the
implications at the time, as time progressed and the bar was raised by
"competing" monolithic products.

so by prototype 2 when we finally had something to do software
development on of the firmware, and i repeated the specification to
him, to cut a long story short in effect he changed his mind and
wanted a better specification.

checking the news page, i have had the first revision prototype of
that new specification ready to be sent to a factory since 10 nov
2013. i mentioned that it needs around $1500 for components and PCB
printing at the time.

Post by Wookey
Is that right? I feel like I've missed some important
information (although I did notice this list go very quiet).
Is there going ot be a plasma tabet at some point? I have a use for one...
In the meantime my playslive card is handy, but I'm somewhat stalled
on mailine sunxi support, which is coming, slowly.
I know these things are difficult - I was quite impressed that we got
this far. On the other hand, having got this far it seemed likely that
we would get further too...

it basically needs money, that's all. that's what it will take for
the projects to continue. i've mentioned this a number of times, and
as i have not yet received any responses i am earning the money myself
so that i can continue.

i tried it once: i cannot do full-time project management, software
development, component sourcing and hardware development *and* a
full-time job without serious health consequences so it is one or the
other.

so it is very simple. i will get this done; the question is whether
anyone else would like to help out financially to get it done. if
they do, it will get done sooner.

l.

Craig Ballew

2014-05-21 01:00:58 UTC

it basically needs money, that's all. that's what it will take for the projects to continue. i've mentioned this a number of times, and as i have not yet received any > responses i am earning the money myself so that i can continue.
i tried it once: i cannot do full-time project management, software development, component sourcing and hardware development *and* a full-time job without serious health > consequences so it is one or the other.
so it is very simple. i will get this done; the question is whether anyone else would like to help out financially to get it done. if they do, it will get done sooner.
l.

How much money is needed for the EOMA68 CPU Card?

Are you looking for product prepayment to fund final development, an investment, or a donation?

Craig Ballew
Madisonville, TN

Time is the most valuable thing a man can spend.
~ Theophrastus

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 20:57:56 UTC

On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Craig Ballew

Post by Craig Ballew

How much money is needed for the EOMA68 CPU Card?

a batch of 2,500 is about $USD 40 each, that's including case but no
FCC/CE, and a batch of only 500 i got an estimate from another
supplier, PCB only, if i recall correctly... was about another $5.
the reason for PCB only is because they are very busy, and for only
500 units the time it takes to organise a quote including contacting
the casework supplier it would have been unfair to have them do that.
anyway expect about another $5 for casework and assembly, so around
the $50 mark for 500 units.

Post by Craig Ballew
Are you looking for product prepayment to fund final development, an investment, or a donation?

i'm open to all three.

btw, joe... you'll like this i am sure, but it is a bit of a risk.

the inclusion of SATA on EOMA68, it is cutting us off from a ton of
CPUs that are coming out for the tablet,tablet,tablet,tablet market -
the $12 rk3188 for example, which would otherwise be perfect.

so i am inclined, especially because i anticipate USB3 SoCs coming
along over the next 8-9 years, to replace SATA with USB2 and 2 other
lines. i think, joe, that one of them should be the "TTL high Power
Line" for the voltage levels on GPIO (and UART).

... pause so that joe can reply "hooray".

the other i think should be a EINT-capable GPIO. also i am thinking
to take over one of the 5V power lines as a "power on" button.

now the thing here is that if done carefully these could all be
"compatible" (i.e. not do any damage) to existing EOMA68 CPU Cards.

but the time to do that is _now_: it cannot be done later. it does
mean a minor CPU Card board revision, but if this project takes off
with EOMA68 as it is then we are stuck with a very limited set of
SoCs.

so, it is a bit of a risk/delay but i think it will be worth it.

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-23 21:44:59 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
a batch of 2,500

That's great for once the whole thing has taken off. I know the Eoma has
been very carefully designed to cheaply mass-produced (and for the
design to be recycled). But I think it's unrealistic to expect those
kinds of numbers until a fairly polished product is shipping. We would
be headed for crowd-sourcing failure. I think we need some way to
progress and build up momentum that involves much smaller runs and is
still affordable.

Several years back I designed an analog circuit for work (4 layers, 20
odd SMT ICs of non-negligible cost, connector). I needed 20 pieces and
did not feel like building them myself (too many). In the end I sent the
whole caboodle to a company in England* who took the design, made the
PCB, sourced the components and assembled the boards. All for 2500 GBP.
That gives me hope that the expense for much smaller runs would not be
so great. I think we'd have a lot more chance of finding 20 people who'd
stump up 100 each to get through one or two revisions.

Joe mentioned 3D printing for any case work. That's a great idea for
these kinds of smallish prototype runs. It's ideal for iterating a
design and it is perfectly feasible to order single units or small numbers.

* For what it is worth, these were the people:
http://www.cogent-technology.co.uk/ . They were great for me, but I
didn't shop around that much or try to haggle, so it may be possible to
find even cheaper. But they were perfectly willing to take on such a
small job.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 22:08:12 UTC

the components and assembled the boards. All for 2500 GBP. That gives me
hope that the expense for much smaller runs would not be so great. I think
we'd have a lot more chance of finding 20 people who'd stump up 100 each to
get through one or two revisions.

boris, i appreciate you're still catching up, here: we went through
the 20 boards process already, last year. the first run was a cock-up
(junior designer even got the board size wrong! i didn't make it
clear enough, apart from anything). the second was 5 units (success),
the third was 30 (also success - hand-assembled the connectors, it
showed in some cases, but the recipients were able to sort out those
few units that had solder bridges).

so with access to an extremely large factory with fully-automated
assembly lines that are capable of doing 20 million units *A WEEK* we
managed to negotiate them down to a *very* small run of 2500 units.
it was only through personal contacts that we managed to do that:
their normal sample batch MOQ is 50k to 100k because the lines are so
fast that it simply isn't worth their time to roll out the tapes and
reels.

so, if we make the minor revisions, i would want to get a batch of 2
to 5 made up just to confirm that they're good. i have a company in
the UK that is prepared to do that. then because we know that the
rest of the PCB works fine (NAND, HDMI, SD/MMC etc.) i think we could
go straight to 100 to 500 units on a crowdfunded site.

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-23 22:25:15 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i appreciate you're still catching up, here

So now I'm caught up.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, if we make the minor revisions, i would want to get a batch of 2
to 5 made up just to confirm that they're good.

(I've said I'll contribute.)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i have a company in
the UK that is prepared to do that. then because we know that the
rest of the PCB works fine (NAND, HDMI, SD/MMC etc.) i think we could
go straight to 100 to 500 units on a crowdfunded site.

So where can I order my eoma-concept-demonstration mini-pc?

Boris

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 22:41:51 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i appreciate you're still catching up, here

So now I'm caught up.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, if we make the minor revisions, i would want to get a batch of 2
to 5 made up just to confirm that they're good.

(I've said I'll contribute.)

awesome.

So where can I order my eoma-concept-demonstration mini-pc?

let me draw up a schedule, first. i have to sleep - i'll start the
micro-pc PCB tomorrow.

l.

Miguel Garcia

2014-05-24 09:36:26 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the inclusion of SATA on EOMA68, it is cutting us off from a ton of
CPUs that are coming out for the tablet,tablet,tablet,tablet market -
the $12 rk3188 for example, which would otherwise be perfect.
so i am inclined, especially because i anticipate USB3 SoCs coming
along over the next 8-9 years, to replace SATA with USB2 and 2 other
lines. i think, joe, that one of them should be the "TTL high Power
Line" for the voltage levels on GPIO (and UART).

I think it's a good idea.

EOMA-68 should be compatible with most SoCs. If SATA prevents EOMA is
compatible with most SoCs, I think it is better to delete SATA.

I guess the idea is to change SATA for (another) USB 2.0. Thus,
EOMA-68 would have a USB 3.0 and a USB 2.0. I think this is a good
idea, since all devices (tablets, phones, portable game devices...)
use several USBs, but only very few devices use SATA.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-24 20:54:31 UTC

Post by Miguel Garcia

I think it's a good idea.
EOMA-68 should be compatible with most SoCs. If SATA prevents EOMA is
compatible with most SoCs, I think it is better to delete SATA.
I guess the idea is to change SATA for (another) USB 2.0. Thus,
EOMA-68 would have a USB 3.0 and a USB 2.0. I think this is a good
idea, since all devices (tablets, phones, portable game devices...)
use several USBs, but only very few devices use SATA.

exactly. *sigh* now i have to carefully reroute portions of the CPU Card...

Derek LaHousse

2014-05-24 23:49:17 UTC

Post by Miguel Garcia

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so i am inclined, especially because i anticipate USB3 SoCs coming
along over the next 8-9 years, to replace SATA with USB2 and 2 other
lines. i think, joe, that one of them should be the "TTL high Power
Line" for the voltage levels on GPIO (and UART).

I think it's a good idea.
EOMA-68 should be compatible with most SoCs. If SATA prevents EOMA is
compatible with most SoCs, I think it is better to delete SATA.

If all you want is to make a product that works for tablets, go ahead.
But SATA is a disk standard, while USB is a peripheral bus. As I
understand it (and I could be wrong, please educate me), the USB bus
generally has to go through CPU, while SATA can often be driven with
DMA. I believe the RasPi currently has this problem with its USB
busses.

So, if I can echo some of what Luke has said previously, this is for
tablet AND tv AND laptop AND mini-computer. Please please please do NOT
cut out the SATA connector.

I remain interested in buying a card, to go with my MEB with the
upside-down SATA.

Derek

Miguel Garcia

2014-05-25 07:41:28 UTC

Post by Derek LaHousse
So, if I can echo some of what Luke has said previously, this is for
tablet AND tv AND laptop AND mini-computer. Please please please do NOT
cut out the SATA connector.
I remain interested in buying a card, to go with my MEB with the
upside-down SATA.

Yes, EOMA-68 is designed for all types of devices. Therefore, Luke
should think best for most devices. If SATA prevents the use of many
SoCs and SATA only benefits some (few) devices; thinking of the best
for most devices, SATA must be removed.

Luke can always add a USB-to-SATA IC in the MEB, and the MEB will have SATA.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-25 08:19:49 UTC

Post by Miguel Garcia
Luke can always add a USB-to-SATA IC in the MEB, and the MEB will have SATA.

... or any 3rd party who creates a correctly-compatible base board.

l.

Stefan Monnier

2014-05-25 19:26:11 UTC

Post by Miguel Garcia
Luke can always add a USB-to-SATA IC in the MEB, and the MEB will have SATA.

FWIW, for my own use (mostly low-power servers, running 24/7),
SATA-via-USB is a non-starter because my experience has always been that
these are not nearly as reliable as true SATA. Second problem is the
usual poor support for things like S.M.A.R.T or control of
spin-down-when-idle. For my use case the performance difference has
never been a show-stopper (after all, I lived with a wl-700ge as one of
those servers until fairly recently), but of course in many cases it can
be yet another deal-breaker.

Stefan

Boris Barbour

2014-05-25 19:56:18 UTC

Post by Miguel Garcia
Luke can always add a USB-to-SATA IC in the MEB, and the MEB will have SATA.

Just a question that may be somewhat related to the USB/SATA dilemma:
what will happen with 64 bit arm?

Boris

Henrik Nordström

2014-05-25 21:42:18 UTC

Post by Stefan Monnier
these are not nearly as reliable as true SATA. Second problem is the
usual poor support for things like S.M.A.R.T or control of
spin-down-when-idle.

Depends a lot on the USB->SATA bridge used. Both smartctl and hdparm
works fine with at least one of mine to control both SMART settings and
access to security feature functions. Haven't tried spindown settings,
but if security feature group works then I would assume the spindown
parameter settings would work as well.

Regards
Henrik

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-25 22:18:08 UTC

On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 8:26 PM, Stefan Monnier

Post by Stefan Monnier

Post by Miguel Garcia
Luke can always add a USB-to-SATA IC in the MEB, and the MEB will have SATA.

FWIW, for my own use (mostly low-power servers, running 24/7),
SATA-via-USB is a non-starter because my experience has always been that
these are not nearly as reliable as true SATA.

for low-power servers when SoCs with USB3 arrive it will always be
possible to get a higher quality USB3-to-SATA IC.... on the
baseboard... for those situations that need it.

.... and the cost of the CPU Card for other purposes that make it
affordable and desirable will not be overburdened by the cost of the
SATA interface.

look at the cost of the iMX6 ($36) compared to the RK3188 ($12) - and
you start to understand what's driving this.

l.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-25 08:18:50 UTC

Post by Derek LaHousse

Post by Miguel Garcia

I think it's a good idea.
EOMA-68 should be compatible with most SoCs. If SATA prevents EOMA is
compatible with most SoCs, I think it is better to delete SATA.

the standard mentor usb hard macros have associated source code which
is DMA driven.

allwinner licensed mentor's usb hard macros, and cheerfully
completely ignored mentor's source code on which the linux kernel
driver for many years has been based, writing their own usb driver
which places some considerable load on the CPU.

it has yet to be seen whether they have the good sense to get with
the program when they start doing USB3.

Post by Derek LaHousse
So, if I can echo some of what Luke has said previously, this is for
tablet AND tv AND laptop AND mini-computer. Please please please do NOT
cut out the SATA connector.

we have a choice derek: don't have a successful standard because the
number of available SoCs are too far apart, or have a successful
standard that has many SoCs per year to choose from over the next
decade.

that isn't much of a choice, so, logically, we go with the success option.

l.

Paul Sokolovsky

2014-05-25 08:24:35 UTC

Hello,

On Sat, 24 May 2014 19:49:17 -0400
Derek LaHousse <dlahouss at mtu.edu> wrote:

[]

Post by Derek LaHousse
As I
understand it (and I could be wrong, please educate me), the USB bus
generally has to go through CPU, while SATA can often be driven with
DMA.

This is ridiculous, any bus can be driven by DMA, and how well that
works depends on particular controller (and driver) implementation, not
on a bus.

Post by Derek LaHousse
I believe the RasPi currently has this problem with its USB
busses.

That's probably because Raspberry Pi is made of botched hosed hardware
and software, and good people warned on staying away from it, because
from it, more bad things can be learned, than good
(http://whitequark.org/blog/2012/09/25/why-raspberry-pi-is-unsuitable-for-education/
, etc.)

[]

--
Best regards,
Paul mailto:pmiscml at gmail.com

Derek LaHousse

2014-05-25 18:00:40 UTC

Post by Paul Sokolovsky
On Sat, 24 May 2014 19:49:17 -0400

Post by Derek LaHousse
As I
understand it (and I could be wrong, please educate me), the USB bus
generally has to go through CPU, while SATA can often be driven with
DMA.

You are wrong.

Well, I'm certainly happy to be wrong.

mike.valk

2014-05-26 13:38:49 UTC

2014-05-23 22:57 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>:
<snip>

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
btw, joe... you'll like this i am sure, but it is a bit of a risk.
the inclusion of SATA on EOMA68, it is cutting us off from a ton of
CPUs that are coming out for the tablet,tablet,tablet,tablet market -
the $12 rk3188 for example, which would otherwise be perfect.
so i am inclined, especially because i anticipate USB3 SoCs coming
along over the next 8-9 years, to replace SATA with USB2 and 2 other
lines. i think, joe, that one of them should be the "TTL high Power
Line" for the voltage levels on GPIO (and UART).

Since we going for interoperability USB makes more sense indeed. USB1,2,3
is somewhat backward compatible, interoperable and is seems the better
choice.

Can we get away with a USB2 only on a USB3 connector? Otherwise the SoC is
forced to have USB3

No native SATA would reduce the use-case for a NAS.

If only thunderbolt would be widespread interface on SoC's.

<snip>

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, it is a bit of a risk/delay but i think it will be worth it.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-26 13:51:51 UTC

On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 2:38 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk
<snip>

Since we going for interoperability USB makes more sense indeed. USB1,2,3 is
somewhat backward compatible, interoperable and is seems the better choice.

yes. read the EOMA68 spec. the section on USB is based on exactly
this premise... and explicitly bans SoCs such as some of the TI ones
which implement 480mbit/sec high-speed *only* on the USB2. if such
SoCs were to be used they would need to be firewalled behind a USB2
Hub IC that could do the down-level (to USB1.1 and 1.0) protocol
conversion.

Post by mike.valk
Can we get away with a USB2 only on a USB3 connector?

of course.

mike.valk

2014-05-26 14:04:44 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 2:38 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk
<snip>

Since we going for interoperability USB makes more sense indeed.

USB1,2,3 is

Post by mike.valk
somewhat backward compatible, interoperable and is seems the better

choice.
yes. read the EOMA68 spec. the section on USB is based on exactly
this premise... and explicitly bans SoCs such as some of the TI ones
which implement 480mbit/sec high-speed *only* on the USB2.

Yeah that was a lame direction. Especially since USB2 certification demands
a USB1.0/1.1 compatiblity.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if such
SoCs were to be used they would need to be firewalled behind a USB2
Hub IC that could do the down-level (to USB1.1 and 1.0) protocol
conversion.

Post by mike.valk
Can we get away with a USB2 only on a USB3 connector?

of course.

That means that every USB3, slave, device must accept a USB1/2 link, from a
master, EOM68 card, even if a USB3 connector is present on the device
holding the EOMA68 card. USB3 requires 5 extra pins, IIRC.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
_______________________________________________
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-26 14:10:57 UTC

On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:04 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk
That means that every USB3, slave, device must accept a USB1/2 link,
from a master,

yyyup.

Post by mike.valk
USB3 requires 5 extra pins

4 coming off the CPU Card. what's the 5th one?

mike.valk

2014-05-27 08:40:23 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:04 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk
That means that every USB3, slave, device must accept a USB1/2 link,
from a master,

yyyup.

Post by mike.valk
USB3 requires 5 extra pins

4 coming off the CPU Card. what's the 5th one?

Apparently: GND_DRAIN: Ground for signal return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#Pinouts

Probably it used to "drain" signal leakage from the SuperSpeed cable pairs.
But how that is to be terminated on the devices properly, I have no idea.
I'm not sure if it's necessary in the EOMA connector either.

Couldn't find anything useful on the Internet either.
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/107669/usb3-with-fewer-wires

Just a notice in this one:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/AND9114-D.PDF

Page 7: Quote on PCB design:
"Place grounds between high speed pairs and keep as
much distance between pairs as possible to reduce
crosstalk"

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-27 10:12:26 UTC

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:40 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 3:04 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com

Post by mike.valk
That means that every USB3, slave, device must accept a USB1/2 link,
from a master,

yyyup.

Post by mike.valk
USB3 requires 5 extra pins

4 coming off the CPU Card. what's the 5th one?

Apparently: GND_DRAIN: Ground for signal return

ok great. thanks mike.

Post by mike.valk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#Pinouts
Probably it used to "drain" signal leakage from the SuperSpeed cable pairs.
But how that is to be terminated on the devices properly, I have no idea.
I'm not sure if it's necessary in the EOMA connector either.

no, that's my understanding.

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-23 10:22:17 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so by prototype 2 when we finally had something to do software
development on of the firmware, and i repeated the specification to
him, to cut a long story short in effect he changed his mind and
wanted a better specification.

Wow. Just .. wow. Luke, I'm tired of you blaming me for failures that had
nothing to do with me.

The reality is that we ended up waiting for the case work design, which I paid
several thousand for, and which never happened.

We did get PCB prototypes done up as well, and they were botched. Remember the
package sent to Philadelphia? The collection of screen, PCB and case which was
not assembled as expected and which did not work even once it was? The one we
forwarded on to you to work out the hardware issues on the PCB, and which
ended up as a huge patchwork of wires you had to add to get things working?
(That was some good work on your part, btw, to get that board near working ..)
... and then a new PCB was drafted and *you and your partner* started talking
about new SoCs ...

Rather than pumping *up* the specification as you asserted, I was the one who
asked you to *drop* the screen resolution in early 2013 to save production
costs. I did not ask for more CPU, more RAM, more disk, etc. over that time.
Things were kept extremely steady despite the changing competitor landscape,
something I repeatedly noted as a challenge to marketing the device as the
timeline continued to stretch out.

Your continued misrepresentation on this list is repulsive. Learn to take some
responsibility, or at the very least not blame others using lies to save your
own face. :/

mike.valk

2014-05-23 14:58:02 UTC

Wow. Just .. wow. Luke, I'm tired of you blaming me for failures that had
nothing to do with me.

<snip>

Flamewar. Somebody call the Firbirgade!

The way I see it. Everybody already got scorched.
1. Aaron, your idea for a opensource KDE tablet failed twice now.
2. Luke, he put a lot of energy, into this project.
3. Luke's associate, whom ever that may be, for taking the challenge
4. The factory, QiMod?, for not getting the order they thought they get
5. The community here, "arm-netbooks", due to weeks/moths of silence and
then being presented with failure and a blame-game/flamewar

I think that's enough burn marks for everyone.

Thus far I only see mis-communications, or the failure to recognize what
the other party receives out of the communication.

I often think that my story is absolute and complete. But how true that may
be to me. It doesn't mean it is complete or clear enough that the recieving
party understands my story, even if they think they do.

Luke, I get this endeavor is frustrating and painfully slow and full of
pitfalls, You try get your idea, dream, to reality. But when it goes to
slow you get from pulling into a pushing mode. I relate to that, I'm dutch,
but in the end it always bites me. One can control only one person,
yourself, and even that control is limited, the rest need persuasion, and
that requires patience and observation.

Aaron, you took over this project and got it underground or relocated. For
the sake of speed or funding, whatever. But it went completely silent here.
Although you may believe you haven't been hiding anything, including
yourself, I, personally, don't think you have been open and forthcoming
enough. Thats all.

I wonder were we are right now.

EOMA68 Standard. Is it complete enough to call it version 1.0?
EOMA68-Allwinner A20 Card. Is it production ready?
1. PCB?
2. Parts?
3. Casework?

EOMA68-Freescale IMX6 Card. Is it production ready?
1. PCB?
2. Parts?
3. Casework?

Interface Board, MEB. Is it production/hacker ready?
1. PCB?
2. Parts?
3. Casework?

The iMX6 development is becomming increasingly active in the OSS community,
CuBox-I/C1/HummingBoard, Novena, Utillite.

Even the GPU has a OSS Driver on the right track.

Lets be friends and start pulling the cart together.

I know funding is always a problem. Crowdfunding is only viable when having
a working prototype. Let find a way to circumvent that.

I really hope that is becomes a realty. But maybe it gets superceeded by
PhoneBloks/Project Ara. Who knows. I really wonder how they are going to
fit a SoC + Memory on such a small form. Or are they going to serialize
memory access as well? We'll see.

<snip>

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
--
Aaron J. Seigo
_______________________________________________
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Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-23 16:24:28 UTC

Post by mike.valk
But it went completely silent here.

Honestly, I didn't consider "here" being a place I needed to communicate
regularly; most of the work we did around EOMA68 was done without
communication here, and I never saw Improv as being the torch bearer for
EOMA68.

Post by mike.valk
Although you may believe you haven't been hiding anything, including
yourself, I, personally, don't think you have been open and forthcoming
enough.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Post by mike.valk
I wonder were we are right now.

I can't speak to the EOMA68 bits as I really have nothing to do with that
other than as a potential customer.

Post by mike.valk
Interface Board, MEB. Is it production/hacker ready?
1. PCB?
2. Parts?
3. Casework?

No casework done (other than one quick prototype we did up at a hackerspace),
but I have one of the completed Improv devices (MEB + A20 EOMA68) sitting on
my desk which works flawlessly; I've run it constant-on for days at a time
running server and desktop applications. It's ready. We could bang off any
number of these tomorrow with the right funding. It's been that way since
Improv was announced.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 21:59:41 UTC

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
I can't speak to the EOMA68 bits as I really have nothing to do with that
other than as a potential customer.

aaron, i'm not sure if you fully understand. you've been blacklisted
by my associate. that is an irreversable decision. around 2 months
ago he gave you notice to remove *all* mention of EOMA from *all* web
sites under your control. i don't have control over what my associate
does, nor do i have any influence over him in this regard, because my
reputation with him has been destroyed by what has transpired.

so i am very sorry to have to spell it out, but you will *never* be a
customer of *any* EOMA or QiMod products, *ever*, and you will *never*
be granted a license to make EOMA-compatible products. and that's not
my decision, but we both have to live with that.

messing up someone's relationship with a multi-billion dollar factory
has consequences, ok?

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-06-03 12:49:41 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Responding belatedly as someone pointed me to this and an article written
online that covered this issue .. I'd like there to be at least public record
somewhere of the reality of things. Personally I had moved on, but as it
apparently continues to circulate and escalate on its own, I feel the need to
respond publicly.

People on the list here can feel free to skip over this email if you were not
involved in the project Luke is referencing, though it does hold a cautionary
tale for anyone who would look to EOMA68 and those behind it as a viable
solution.

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
I can't speak to the EOMA68 bits as I really have nothing to do with that
other than as a potential customer.

I never received any such notice.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
messing up someone's relationship with a multi-billion dollar factory
has consequences, ok?

As does taking 1000s of $ from a me as your client and never producing the
promised product.

A realistic appraisal would be to look at QiMOD's string of failures over the
entirety of 2013 that I had absolutely nothing to do with. QiMOD failed to
meet deadline after deadline that you had set for yourselves. Those failures
stretched out over a long enough period of time that both my own resources for
the projects were exhausted and external sources of funding that were at my
disposal were withdrawn due to the (rightfully) perceived risk in continuing
with QiMOD as hardware partner.

Blaming a possible customer representing a maximum order of 10k pieces (going
back to early 2013, better times indeed) for ruining *your* relationship with
a multi-billion dollar factory is, frankly, astounding. When everything is
riding on such a small order, it becomes obvious just how precarious things
were on the EOMA / QiMOD side.

Given that there are zero other customers banging down your door and that we
*never* signed a production PO, I dare say you are trying to deny
responsibility. Always easier to blame another and let their reputation bear
the consequences of your mistakes?

I hope others thinking of doing business with you take that as the warning it
ought to be.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
you will *never* be a customer of *any* EOMA or QiMod products

This is the definition of a paper tiger.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-06-03 13:05:57 UTC

aaron: it does not matter what you think happened. what matters is
that you failed to keep a supplier informed, you embarrassed them in
front of the factory (a multi-billion dollar state-sponsored company),
massively disrupting the entire project as a result.

i do not have time to deal with this. please can you unsubscribe
yourself from this list so that i do not have to do it for you.

l.

mike.valk

2014-06-04 10:23:15 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
aaron: it does not matter what you think happened. what matters is
that you failed to keep a supplier informed, you embarrassed them in
front of the factory (a multi-billion dollar state-sponsored company),
massively disrupting the entire project as a result.
i do not have time to deal with this.

Then don't. Don't respond.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
please can you unsubscribe
yourself from this list so that i do not have to do it for you.

I feel that that will counter productive. Wat is done is done. Having Aaron
on or off the ML won't change anything. Forcing it will only imply
censorship.

Trying to silence someone, is a bad choice. The noise will only grow
bigger.

You and your associate have chosen to not to do business deals with Aaron
or his team. Fine, understandable.

Don't forget that Aaron intentions were probably good and probably still
are. The means to result have failed.

Aaron still represents a part in the KDE/ActivePlasma movement. You'll bumb
into each other again in the future when either of the goals is met.

You both lost something. Searching for blame will not change it.

You have said your part, Aaron has said his part. We/I have said mine/ours.

Let people decide for their own

Let's move one. All of us.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 21:50:54 UTC

Wow. Just .. wow. Luke, I'm tired of you blaming me for failures that had
nothing to do with me.

aaron: i have kept silent on a number of things, when i should not
have done. yes i made mistakes: they're part of a learning curve and
product development, and we are doing this all at a much lower cost
than would normally be attempted. normally, mistakes would be hidden
from the client, because the amount of money paid would be *vastly*
higher than just the operational costs.

i have spoken to other companies asking them if they would like to
help: many of them misunderstood my request and sent me back quotes
for full product development: those quotes were often somewhere around
$USD 250,000. in total, on both the CPU Card and the tablet PCB,
we've gotten away with around $20k so far. which is extremely good
going.

when you threatened me (that if we made a competitor product to
Improv you would ensure that we never sold a product to a software
libre community ever again. i wasn't intending to: i did reassure you
of that, so the threat that you made was completely unnecessary) but i
decided to let that pass, and, at a critical time in the project,
allowed you take control of the project, in effect.

i figured what the heck: you have the experience, you have the
confidence, and the contacts, let's see what happens. so i gave you
the database of all the people whom we had collected, and we skipped
the phase of doing a run of up to 150 units, where the people on the
database included those people who would have been happy to pay in
some cases up to $USD 150 for a board, as a loyal way to get the
project to the next phase.

... what happened?

well, we ended up with our relationship with *two* factories being
destroyed, and we have a small dedicated client list who have paid you
money for a product that they are never going to get, until you return
their money to them. even when you do that, some of those loyal
people may be so disillusioned that they give up.

but there is more.

the design team that you selected ignored my advice: i let you go
through that learning curve as well.

the team that you selected started trying to take total control of
the EOMA68 standard, making promises on public forums that they had
absolutely no authority to do, placing themselves at risk of being
sued for misrepresentation, as well as bringing the standard and QiMod
Ltd into disrepute as a result, through that misrepresentation. it
was extremely embarrassing to have to correct chris publicly on the
makeplaylive forum, but it had to be done.

they also, by ignoring my advice to use lower-cost china-based
components from suppliers that i had already found, delayed the entire
operation by something like 8 to 10 weeks as they had to redesign the
board after selecting USA-based suppliers (of china-manufactured
components) and finding that the cost of components was often 400%
higher.

overall the team that you selected, who have a lot of experience in
PCB design, took *OVER THREE MONTHS* to design a board with under 20
components.

and you're complaining about _me_ making errors on a board with over
200. do you think it is reasonable to continue to complain about me
making mistakes on 2 revisions of a quite high-density board on my
first major PCB design project when experienced people that you
selected cannot deliver a board with 1/10th the number of components?

so, once we effectively handed over complete control to you:

* you destroyed our relationship with two factories
* you adversely affected our relationship with the software libre
community who has been following the project loyally for a few years
now
* you didn't deliver on the promise that you made
* you didn't keep us informed in a timely fashion as to whether you
were likely to be able to keep to that promise
* you selected an incompetent team that comprised one person that was
known to be *OPPOSED* to the EOMA68 concept and another that
misrepresented the standard on public forums
* you jeapordised not one but TWO factory relationships by not
responding to our communications
* you delayed the project by several additional and unnecessary months
through the selection of an incompetent team who took three months to
design a board with under 20 components.

now, i don't think it appropriate to make judgements, because that is
inappropriate. what *would* be good is if you were able to accept
these things as lessons and do better next time. by that... ach this
is really quite subtle, let me try to explain.

if you have someone who has access to a huge factory, and they are
presenting you with the opportunity to gain access to that resource,
and if you want access to that resource, then you should damn well
make sure that they are kept REALLY happy!!

so if they say "you didn't answer our questions in a timely fashion"
what in god's name are you doing *denying* that they even asked you
those questions... not once, but TWICE!

if you *really* were truly interested in making this a success,
instead of trying to continue to shout me down in a frustrated
fashion, you would be apologising profusely and going "eek! this is
really bad, how can i make it right, how can i make this a success?"

this is harder than it looks, especially on a budget.
retrospectively, we all learned a lot, we're not hugely happy, but we
pick ourselves up and carry on. unfortunately i don't have control
over my associate's decisions: he has completely lost faith in the
software libre community *entirely* (including in me) so he does not
listen to my advice any more if it has anything to do with software
libre or anyone else *in* the software libre community.

which reminds me: have you removed all mention of EOMA68 and EOMA
products from all web sites yet, as my associate requested? that
would be good. i *really* do not want to have to tell him that there
are still pictures of EOMA68 CPU Cards on makeplaylive or any other
forums, or any public discussions going on on forums that you control,
a full two months after he sent you a notice to remove them. trust
me: he's not someone you want to mess about with.

l.

Aaron J. Seigo

2014-05-23 10:23:51 UTC

Post by Wookey
Hmm. I was expecting a plasma tablet announcment at some point, based
on eoma-68, but apparently something has gone wrong and that's now not
happenning? Is that right? I feel like I've missed some important
information (although I did notice this list go very quiet).

This entire project is on hold indefinitely. That has been noted on the MPL
forums as well; we haven't been keeping that secret. The tablet project
stretched out much longer than it should have and exhausted my resources in
the process, which is what was driving tha tproject.

Post by Wookey
Is there going ot be a plasma tabet at some point? I have a use for one...

That depends on the ability to find a reliable partner and funding in future.

Stéphane Goujet

2014-05-23 12:02:41 UTC

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
This entire project is on hold indefinitely. That has been noted on the
MPL forums as well; we haven't been keeping that secret. The tablet
project stretched out much longer than it should have and exhausted my
resources in the process, which is what was driving tha tproject.

You mean the forum where people have noticed more than 2 weeks ago from
external source (this mailing list) that there is a huge problem with the
future of Improv and you have not taken 10 minutes to inform them, neither
before nor after they discover this, while you continue publishing
articles and comments on Google+ with your usual verbosity on other
matters ; matters on which you do not claim to have spent $200.000 but
you judge more important to communicate ?

StÃ©phane.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-23 13:18:12 UTC

Guys,

Although it's hard to avoid the temptation of a good blamestorming session, it
is a shame to see libre people fighting for little gain. Personally, I don't
think it's a good idea to use the public mailing list for this.

Getting libre-friendly hardware off the ground is really difficult, and it's not
something that anybody has a lot of previous experience with (except Arduino +
Raspberry to an extent). I think it is only to be expected that mistakes will
be happen, unrealistic assumptions will be made and overoptimistic
expectations will not be fulfilled, leaving people in more than awkward
situations. What's important is to learn from the mistakes and move forward.

The fund-raising success of the Novena stuff suggests one path forward. The
EOMA project will find it a lot easier to raise funding and gain traction if it
can demonstrate a prototype product integrating a prototype eoma board. There
are some working prototypes of the board already, if I understand correctly.
What would be the easiest (=cheapest) product to build? I'm guessing a mini-
pc, since there is no screen to integrate and no real space constraint,
although a latptop or a tablet would be a bit more exciting. What would be
required?

Best wishes,

Boris

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 13:37:11 UTC

Post by Boris Barbour
Guys,
Although it's hard to avoid the temptation of a good blamestorming session, it
is a shame to see libre people fighting for little gain.

boris: i have to inform the people who have been counting on us to
deliver as to what is going on, and why.

Post by Boris Barbour
Personally, I don't
think it's a good idea to use the public mailing list for this.

i totally disagree. in fact i much prefer that *all* details be
covered on public mailing lists. i have always disliked private
conversations for software libre projects, and now you know why.

Post by Boris Barbour
The fund-raising success of the Novena stuff suggests one path forward.

bunny went to MIT where he learned hardware design.

bunny has personal funds which he has received from clients and has
been able to redirect his own personal money into getting the project
off the ground.

he was able to use those personal funds to create prototypes, as well
as use his considerable experience to not have to pay anyone else to
do the component sourcing and PCB design.

once he reached the point where the PCB was demonstrably working,
*then* he was able to approach case designers, and again use his
personal funds to create a prototype.

once he had a case design, *then* he was able to get onto the
fundraiser sites and raise funds.

now here is the difference:

1) when i started this project, i had zero hardware design experience,
and zero funds.

2) i have been operating this project for four years with a $USD
40,000 personal debt continuously kept at bay, putting all and any
personal money received into the project *instead* of paying off that
debt, but have only received an average of $USD 15,000 income *per
year* over the past 4 years, with outgoings averaging around $20,000.
various family members and in one case complete strangers have at
various times given or lent me personal funds in order to keep going.

3) i did not have the experience to do PCB design, so i asked other
people if they would like to help. not one of those people who
offered has delivered.

4) i was therefore forced to either pay up to $10,000 of personal
funds to get PCBs designed or

5) i was forced to learn PCB design in order to get the project done.

so it is a completely different story, completely different scenario.
and yes i have already approached bunny to ask him if he would like to
help: he declined.

so, having had so many libre people let me down i am going to do this
myself, controlled entirely 100%. they've been offered the
opportunity to help out and to share in the profits: my conscience
which tells me to prioritise libre people and give them the
opportunity to participate is therefore in the clear if i now operate
this 100% entirely controlled and receive 100% of the profits.

once it is financially self-sustaining i can revisit that decision.

Post by Boris Barbour
The
EOMA project will find it a lot easier to raise funding and gain traction if it
can demonstrate a prototype product integrating a prototype eoma board.

that was done already *months* ago. august or september 2013.

Post by Boris Barbour
There
are some working prototypes of the board already, if I understand correctly.
What would be the easiest (=cheapest) product to build? I'm guessing a mini-
pc, since there is no screen to integrate and no real space constraint,

correct. you are looking at the mini desktop pc basically. i
completed the first revision in december 2013.

Post by Boris Barbour
although a latptop or a tablet would be a bit more exciting. What would be
required?

money, boris. very simple. about $1500 or so per PCB revision
including component population and buying. it can be done cheaper but
only by someone who is skilled at PCB population.

however that is $1500 per *iteration* and it will likely take at
least 2 iterations. there is a technique for reducing the cost and
risk, by splitting the PCB into modules and then integrating each
part. however in this case as space is quite tight (100mm x 100 or
so) it is difficult to do that. and time-consuming.

l.

peter green

2014-05-23 14:56:08 UTC

Post by Boris Barbour
if I understand correctly.
What would be the easiest (=cheapest) product to build? I'm guessing a mini-
pc, since there is no screen to integrate and no real space constraint,

The problem is you have to answer the question of "what does this
proposed new product offer that products that are already on the market
do not".

I know you will say "the ability to replace the CPU card and avoid
throwing the rest of the product away". However there are two problems
with that.

1: we are talking about a new unproven product line. What confidence
does a potential customer have that there will ever be a second
generation of CPU card?
2: it relies on their being significant value in the product OUTSIDE the
cpu card. If the rest of the product is little more than a breakout
board for the CPU card that value isn't there.

So since the modularity advantage is rather theoretical at this point
you have to offer something compelling outside of the modularity,
whether that is some unique feature, better performance at a given price
point than has previously been available or something else. Improv
simply didn't offer that, it had a substantially higher price point than
the cubie2 which had the same hardware and was already on the market.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-23 15:15:00 UTC

Post by peter green
The problem is you have to answer the question of "what does this
proposed new product offer that products that are already on the market
do not".

If you are simply interested in performance now, this isn't the project for
you. The value proposition for me is maximally free arm hardware. For instance
allowing me to run debian natively. I'm completely fed-up of "images on sd
cards", "download the driver from google here" etc. I want debian on a disk
and upgradeable as normal. Eoma goes a long way in that direction and offers
the longer-term avantages of low cost, reuse, modularity and even more
freedom. Obviously the economies of scale will not be there initally, but I
would definitely pay above the odds for a working product to help the project
get started.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 22:40:24 UTC

Post by peter green
The problem is you have to answer the question of "what does this
proposed new product offer that products that are already on the market
do not".

have you seen the recent discussions on debian-arm about the port of
debian-installer to sunxi?

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-23 22:55:10 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
have you seen the recent discussions on debian-arm about the port of
debian-installer to sunxi?

No. Although it sounds good, I'm not actually sure what that means -
that I'll soon be able to run the installer on lots of hardware?

All I know is that I should be able to run debian without hassle on arm
like I run it on intel stuff, and benefit from low power, long battery
life (for mobile stuff) and low cost (eventually). But nearly all
available equipment is tediously constrained in some way or other. I'll
be happy to start with a small, silent fanless box.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
let me draw up a schedule, first. i have to sleep - i'll start the
micro-pc PCB tomorrow.

Waiting...

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-24 07:06:33 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
have you seen the recent discussions on debian-arm about the port of
debian-installer to sunxi?

No. Although it sounds good, I'm not actually sure what that means - that
I'll soon be able to run the installer on lots of hardware?

it means no more f*****g about with 4 gigabyte downloads just to get
*someone else's* decisions on what software should be installed on
*your* hardware, having to undo all of their arbitrary decisions, no
more having to work out how to resize SD card images, and you can
install directly onto SATA as one of the disks... or do NFS root
partitions.... everything.

All I know is that I should be able to run debian without hassle on arm like
I run it on intel stuff, and benefit from low power, long battery life (for
mobile stuff) and low cost (eventually). But nearly all available equipment
is tediously constrained in some way or other. I'll be happy to start with a
small, silent fanless box.

USB, VGA, SD/MMC, HDMI, 10/100 Ethernet, 1Gb RAM, 4Gb NAND, Dual-Core
A20, a few pins GPIO and an I2C interface. would that do for a start?

l.

Boris Barbour

2014-05-24 08:33:13 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
USB, VGA, SD/MMC, HDMI, 10/100 Ethernet, 1Gb RAM, 4Gb NAND, Dual-Core
A20, a few pins GPIO and an I2C interface. would that do for a start?

Mirco-pc indeed :-) Is there a(n optional) disk in this system? You
mentioned SATA (vs USB 3) in an earlier email. I suspect that more
memory would be useful. But, whatever: the project will have to walk
before it can run.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-24 14:07:49 UTC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
USB, VGA, SD/MMC, HDMI, 10/100 Ethernet, 1Gb RAM, 4Gb NAND, Dual-Core
A20, a few pins GPIO and an I2C interface. would that do for a start?

Mirco-pc indeed :-) Is there a(n optional) disk in this system? You
mentioned SATA (vs USB 3) in an earlier email.

yes. i want to keep this very basic and achievable, and also
realistically stand a chance of selecting alternative SoCs in the
future. the future's going SATA-less (tablet
s,tablets,tablets,tablets,tablets) and with USB3 being 5gbit/sec i
don't see that as a problem.

putting down a USB-to-SATA IC would approximately double the
components, and increase the risk. much better all round if people
just add their own USB-to-SATA dongle.

Post by Boris Barbour
I suspect that more memory
would be useful. But, whatever: the project will have to walk before it can
run.

... exactly. i already asked: it's $8,000 for a board-level redesign
to add 2Gbyte RAM and 10/100/1000 Ethernet.

l.

Post by Boris Barbour
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Boris Barbour

2014-05-24 14:33:31 UTC

much better all round if people just add their own USB-to-SATA dongle.

OK.

Post by Boris Barbour
I suspect that more memory
would be useful. But, whatever: the project will have to walk before it can
run.

... exactly. i already asked: it's $8,000 for a board-level redesign
to add 2Gbyte RAM and 10/100/1000 Ethernet.

So that's certainly off the menu for now.

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

2014-05-23 22:39:30 UTC

if I understand correctly. What would be the easiest (=cheapest) product
to build? I'm guessing a mini-
pc, since there is no screen to integrate and no real space constraint,

i cannot answer this question as it stands, because trust is
something that *you* have to give. the decision to trust is *yours*,
not mine. so the honest answer to that is whether *you* trust *my*
committment to the project's success.

now, i can point you in a direction which will allow you to make that
decision, bearing in mind that it is down to you. i am a complex and
gifted person with a lot to learn about communication and people,
often keeping silent when i should not, and speaking out truthfully
when people do not wish to hear. but... hey, i am usually well ahead
of the curve when it comes to computer innovations.

one day something that i do ahead of everyone else will be highly
successful and for once i might even be the one that benefits
financially enough from it to be able to keep it completely under my
control and on the course that i know will bring the full benefits
that i originally envisaged.

2: it relies on their being significant value in the product OUTSIDE the cpu
card. If the rest of the product

products PLURAL peter. please take a look at the community ideas
page on the rhombus-tech.net wiki:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/
and when doing so, please bear in mind that this project has a
decade-long timespan. unlike other product family design concepts,
this one is not on a desperate
design-it-as-fast-as-you-can-sell-it-as-fast-as-you-can-before-the-CPU-is-overtaken-by-competitor-products
lifecycle.

So since the modularity advantage is rather theoretical at this point you
have to offer something compelling outside of the modularity, whether that
is some unique feature, better performance at a given price point than has
previously been available or something else. Improv simply didn't offer
that, it had a substantially higher price point than the cubie2 which had
the same hardware and was already on the market.

which means that you have misunderstood the concept, and the full
value of the concept.

the first thing you need to understand is that a comparison of a
short-term development board to a long-term PRODUCT FAMILY concept is
at best completely misguided, and misses the whole purpose of this
inititative.

allow me to illustrate through some simple statements:

if you want only cubie (or other developer boards at the lowest
possible price), you are at the wrong web site.

if you want a tablet, and a pc, and a laptop, and a games console,
and you want to operate all those machines simultaneously, and you are
happy to throw them in landfill and replace them each when even the
slightest component breaks, you are at the wrong web site.

if however you want to save around 30% on the cost of two (or more)
equivalent monolithic products, because you are happy to SHARE THE CPU
CARD BETWEEN PRODUCTS, then you are at the **RIGHT** web site.

if you want to upgrade those products in the future, saving over the
lifetime of SEVERAL products on eco-waste in the process by being able
to recycle the older CPU Card, you are at the **RIGHT** web site.

does that give you a clear enough distinction between the EOMA
concept and the monolithic limited product concept?

the committment of customers to EOMA product concept is a *long-term*
one, it is *not* a short-term "buy the latest and greatest fashion
product and discard it in landfill when bored with it" one.

that's why our relationship with that large billion-dollar factory in
china is so important, because we have the possibility to influence
them in their product ranges, and due to their size their own
bureaucracy is making it very challenging to keep up with the
fast-moving pace of the ARM world, now. our product concept allows
them to create the same "shell" on a *DIFFERENT* much longer timescale
than the CPU cards, which, in bulk, they can make plenty of and then
switch very quickly to a new CPU **WITHOUT** having to totally
redesign an entire [monolithic] product range.

so it is a good match. they get it. but they *cannot* commit to an
R&D budget. at all. they don't have one. at all. they only do
ready-made designs (made by other people). and then make 100,000 to
10,000,000 of them :)

l.

Nico Rikken

2014-05-25 22:27:42 UTC

Hi,

This ongoing discussion, despite the wealth of personal arguments, has
clarified a lot of details for me as an enthusiast and potential
customer.

Ever since I heard about the Spark tablet I truly believed this would
dramatically change the playing field of FOSS and FOS-hardware. Hearing
about the underlying EOMA-board adheres to this vision, where this would
be the new standard in FOS-land and the overall maker-community.

As far as I understand it, over time some other SoC's have already been
re-engineered. In addition the recent RaspberryPi-board and the
crowd-sourced Novena board have closed in on the proposition of the
EOMA-board. However the EOMA-board still seems to hold a place of its
own for compactness and power.

In my job I've got to get a glimpse of the embedded-hardware development
business and knowing now about development costs involved, it is truly
heartbreaking to see this project in this state. I believe the potential
is still there, the hard work has been done, it just takes a great
launch to bootstrap production, community adoption and even further
development.

As for the launch Improv didn't cut it for me as a potential customer.
The lack of detailed communication and the strong focus on the
make-play-live proposition (which to me seems limited and seems to go
against the hacker market). And above all, I just wanted to have a
FOS-tablet to play with, not an offering similar to my RaspberryPi
(which I even hardly use).

Say the EOMA-board would run a crowdfunding effort to start commercial
development, what would be a good proposition? To me it seems to be a
tablet combination, to also aid in the FOSS development (like
make-play-live).

Personally I could see the board earn a place on it's own, by being a
great replacement for the RaspberryPi, specically for other
RaspberryPi-projects for which the RaspberryPi is just a way of
achieving a service, like: Generic fileserver (NAS), Owncloud-instance,
ArkOS install (multiple local services), XBMC-player or Android-player
(say for games, probably requiring Replicant Android).
Others might even be: 3D-printer-driver, VJ-visual generator (like the
M-Labs m1), Freedombox (although currently in development and requiring
an additional network interface), home-automation or parallel processing
using multiple boards.
One of the main benefits of the EOMA-board is the fact that it can
easily be handled by regular users, without fearing ESD-problems. The
Improv-board, despite offering decent breakouts, doesn't adhere to this
user-level, still requiring an additional case.

Considering that like me others saw a place for this development but
didn't fully support for various reasons, it might be worth another try
to find the required support for this to take off. Say by preparing and
starting a crowdfunding campaign offering the EOMA-boards, various
breakouts (Improv-type breakout with option of a plastic case,
NAS-enclosure with HDD-space, tablet (with room for batteries)) linked
to various donation levels, paid pre-installation as a way of turning
time into money and finally products like mugs and t-shirts.

Even though I'm not fully emerged into the FOSS-community, I believe the
Novena project has set an example by creating social presence even
before launching the crowdfunding campaing by initially demonstrating
skill (overall blog and SD-card analysis) and next showing off the
product (e.g. Chaos Communication Congress). This makes me believe that
with proper marketing and having a great offer, the community will at
least consider supporting this 'project' and better yet fully fund the
project.
Seeing the EOMA-board as the underlying basis for further efforts, I
believe Luke should be (involved in) initiating such an effort, despite
all politics involved in the recent debates.

(hope I didn't fuel a rant with this e-mail).

Kind regards,
Nico Rikken, NL

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Paul NeoStormer

2014-05-25 23:24:09 UTC

I absolutely agree with this, I have been following this product for years and I believe a crowdsourcing campaign is vital to getting this product off the ground. I would imagine pushing just the EOMA-68 card and include HDMI and powered USB-OTG cables; to start with. The have stretch goals that add a bare minimum MEB and slowly add ports to the MEB with each tier. I would recommend leaving a tablet for a separate product because then it could be marketed as working with the EOMA-68 cards that are available. Hope I'm not out of line, just a suggestion.

Post by Nico Rikken
Hi,
This ongoing discussion, despite the wealth of personal arguments, has
clarified a lot of details for me as an enthusiast and potential
customer.
Ever since I heard about the Spark tablet I truly believed this would
dramatically change the playing field of FOSS and FOS-hardware. Hearing
about the underlying EOMA-board adheres to this vision, where this would
be the new standard in FOS-land and the overall maker-community.
As far as I understand it, over time some other SoC's have already been
re-engineered. In addition the recent RaspberryPi-board and the
crowd-sourced Novena board have closed in on the proposition of the
EOMA-board. However the EOMA-board still seems to hold a place of its
own for compactness and power.
In my job I've got to get a glimpse of the embedded-hardware development
business and knowing now about development costs involved, it is truly
heartbreaking to see this project in this state. I believe the potential
is still there, the hard work has been done, it just takes a great
launch to bootstrap production, community adoption and even further
development.
As for the launch Improv didn't cut it for me as a potential customer.
The lack of detailed communication and the strong focus on the
make-play-live proposition (which to me seems limited and seems to go
against the hacker market). And above all, I just wanted to have a
FOS-tablet to play with, not an offering similar to my RaspberryPi
(which I even hardly use).
Say the EOMA-board would run a crowdfunding effort to start commercial
development, what would be a good proposition? To me it seems to be a
tablet combination, to also aid in the FOSS development (like
make-play-live).
Personally I could see the board earn a place on it's own, by being a
great replacement for the RaspberryPi, specically for other
RaspberryPi-projects for which the RaspberryPi is just a way of
achieving a service, like: Generic fileserver (NAS), Owncloud-instance,
ArkOS install (multiple local services), XBMC-player or Android-player
(say for games, probably requiring Replicant Android).
Others might even be: 3D-printer-driver, VJ-visual generator (like the
M-Labs m1), Freedombox (although currently in development and requiring
an additional network interface), home-automation or parallel processing
using multiple boards.
One of the main benefits of the EOMA-board is the fact that it can
easily be handled by regular users, without fearing ESD-problems. The
Improv-board, despite offering decent breakouts, doesn't adhere to this
user-level, still requiring an additional case.
Considering that like me others saw a place for this development but
didn't fully support for various reasons, it might be worth another try
to find the required support for this to take off. Say by preparing and
starting a crowdfunding campaign offering the EOMA-boards, various
breakouts (Improv-type breakout with option of a plastic case,
NAS-enclosure with HDD-space, tablet (with room for batteries)) linked
to various donation levels, paid pre-installation as a way of turning
time into money and finally products like mugs and t-shirts.
Even though I'm not fully emerged into the FOSS-community, I believe the
Novena project has set an example by creating social presence even
before launching the crowdfunding campaing by initially demonstrating
skill (overall blog and SD-card analysis) and next showing off the
product (e.g. Chaos Communication Congress). This makes me believe that
with proper marketing and having a great offer, the community will at
least consider supporting this 'project' and better yet fully fund the
project.
Seeing the EOMA-board as the underlying basis for further efforts, I
believe Luke should be (involved in) initiating such an effort, despite
all politics involved in the recent debates.
(hope I didn't fuel a rant with this e-mail).
Kind regards,
Nico Rikken, NL
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Albert ARIBAUD

2014-05-26 08:04:29 UTC