[Arm-netbook] Keyboard

[Vincent Legoll]

Hello,

First, congrats on the campaign success !

I tried searching the ML archives & rhombus site, but couldn't find it.

Is the laptop's keyboard only option the
Keyboard: Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.

Or can a backlit one be substitued easily? I.e. No other HW redesign...

Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few
leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had
this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.

That would make the laptop better suited to night use.

Wdyt?

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Vincent Legoll

Post by Vincent Legoll
Hello,
First, congrats on the campaign success !

thxman.

Post by Vincent Legoll
I tried searching the ML archives & rhombus site, but couldn't find it.
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the
Keyboard: Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.

and associated variants, yes. see
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/

Post by Vincent Legoll
Or can a backlit one be substitued easily? I.e. No other HW redesign...

substituted yes... easily... well... a replacement keyboard has
(physically touches) the following surrounding parts:

* back runner (left and right)
* left edge, right edge
* middle strut (underneath)
* touchpanel tray
* PCB1 support (left side)
* Battery support (right side)
* left front kbd support (for compartment)
* right front kbd support

now, given that work on each of these, to fit a new keyboard, would
take about 2-3 days of CAD work, 3-4 days of re-printing followed by
iterative redesign *EACH PART*, a simple-sounding "can we replace the
keyboard with something different" stacks up to a staggering 7-9 weeks
just on 3D CAD work.

then PCB2 also needs to be redone, not just in terms of connector
sourcing but also component placement and connector placement. after
doing a feasibility study of approximately 2 weeks and sourcing the
parts (another 2-3 weeks) this takes an estimated 1 week for the
design plus another 4-6 weeks for the PCB to be manufactured and
components source, purchased and assembled.

however before you get to that, you have to bear in mind that the
connector placement may have a cascade knock-on effect on the PCB
shape as well as the CAD design to *fit* the new PCB shape, now you're
looking at an extra 2-4 weeks of iterative 3D work.

then also the keyboard's matrix has to be reverse-engineered because
it's extremely unlikely that the manufacturers will tell you how it
works. that requires disassembly of they keyboard, tracing its tracks
and documenting them: this takes another 2-3 days.

then you need to reprogram the firmware. with the current firmware
already in place that would take maybe a couple of days.

so.

simple-sounding question "can a new keyboard be fitted"... answer is:
it's about 4 months of full-time work.

Post by Vincent Legoll
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few
leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had
this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.

that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work,
redesigning casework, that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and
there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM
control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB
design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and
verification.

Post by Vincent Legoll
That would make the laptop better suited to night use.
Wdyt?

*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@f

[Christopher Havel]

'ey Luke, I've reverse-engineered a keyboard before in about half an
afternoon. It was a dead one, mind you (my mother had emptied a cup of
orange Crystal Lite into it!) but I got a fair idea from it.

The method you're looking for is not following traces, but rather using a
multimeter set to continuity (or diode test) and hook-probes (google if
unfamiliar). Two sheets of contacts, so two connectors, you know?

So, you hook one hook-probe to the first pin on the bottom-side connector,
and the other probe to the first pin on the top-side, and you find what key
connects them. Move the top-side hook-probe over one pin and do the same
thing. Once you've gotten all the top-side pins, move the bottom-side over
one and start the bottom-side over again at pin one.

If you get bored easily (or zone out quickly) -- Pandora and a decent pair
of PC speakers really helps ;) Logitech makes okay ones for this that are
pretty cheap (audiophiles will beg to differ).

[Albert ARIBAUD]

Hi all,

Le Sat, 27 Aug 2016 17:12:08 +0100

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
then also the keyboard's matrix has to be reverse-engineered because
it's extremely unlikely that the manufacturers will tell you how it
works. that requires disassembly of they keyboard, tracing its tracks
and documenting them: this takes another 2-3 days.

This could be achieved without taking the keyboard apart, assuming it
can be connected to the GPIOs of the EC or a NUCLEO with some ad hoc
scanning program (I actually considered such a scanning loop when I
started working on the AZERTY keyboard, but did not need it eventually).

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)

Yep, that would work too. :)

Amicalement,

[Vincent Legoll]

Hi,

I don't know why, but I was kind of expecting this kind of answer ;-)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Vincent Legoll
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the
Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.

and associated variants, yes.

In fact the question I had in mind was more:

If there are such associated variants that can be (almost) drop-in
replacement, but with backlighting...

Because I naively expected the producers to reuse their designs when
adding such slight variations...

So the answer is no... Too bad

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Vincent Legoll
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few
leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had
this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.

that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work,
redesigning casework

Ouch, I was thinking of just one or two small holes in the casing, and friction
slip the LEDs inside... I would not have expected this to take significant
work. It could even be done by careful drilling, without redesign.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and
there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM
control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB
design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and
verification.

Here I show my almost complete lack of electronics-fu, I thought LEDs
were so low power that they could get piggybacked to the display power
line with just a 1K resistor added, and maybe a switch, to avoid needing
to route a GPIO there just for that.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)

That's where I'm coming from, and where I expected not to stay... :-)

Especially as this is absolutely not eco-conscious, the one I got lost leds
after just a few weeks of light use, and now is getting useless. Maybe that
was bad luck, but I'm not holding my breath with a new one...

But thanks for the very detailed answer.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Vincent Legoll

Post by Vincent Legoll
Hi,
I don't know why, but I was kind of expecting this kind of answer ;-)

:)

Post by Vincent Legoll

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Vincent Legoll
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the
Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.

and associated variants, yes.

If there are such associated variants that can be (almost) drop-in
replacement, but with backlighting...

you need *exact* drop-in replacement, not "almost" - tolerances
are... what... 0.3mm so the keyboard doesn't fall out? and the
connector really does have to be exact.

Post by Vincent Legoll
Because I naively expected the producers to reuse their designs when
adding such slight variations...
So the answer is no... Too bad

pretty mad, huh?

Post by Vincent Legoll

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Vincent Legoll
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few
leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had
this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.

that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work,
redesigning casework

Ouch, I was thinking of just one or two small holes in the casing, and friction
slip the LEDs inside... I would not have expected this to take significant
work. It could even be done by careful drilling, without redesign.

it's best if you either run the 3D CAD stuff (see the youmagine
page), 3d-print a set out, then you'll have a clear idea. you don't
really need to drill it (ok you could for a 1st revision).

Post by Vincent Legoll

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and
there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM
control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB
design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and
verification.

Here I show my almost complete lack of electronics-fu, I thought LEDs
were so low power that they could get piggybacked to the display power
line with just a 1K resistor added, and maybe a switch, to avoid needing
to route a GPIO there just for that.

the backlight's at 17v (appx) - LEDs are current-controlled not
voltage-controlled, they're not negligeable current, and you really
don't want to be overloading the power chip.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@file

[Christopher Havel]

@Vincent.

If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe --
it's either got a remarkably insufficient resistor, or (far more likely) it
was a Dollar Tree Special that doesn't have that protective component at
all (I got bit there once myself). The light in my pocket came with a
Rayovac AA for ~$5, and has served me well for a year or two now.

It's not my all-time favorite (that would be the Brinkmann one that I had
until it died... a replacement is $20, to which I say, "I don't think so,
Tim!") but it's very nice. It's this one here
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/331836187844>. I'd buy that, even though it's $3
more than I paid at *cringe* Wal*Mart. (For the record, mine is a sort of
bronze-ish color, almost a dark gold... not silver like that one.)

@ Luke. 20mA @ 2-3.5v, depending on the LED in question and its color.
eBay-issue cool white LEDs are 3.4v... I have a bag of 50 warm white ones
that are otherwise identical... I'd be inclined to call 40mA at 3.4v (quick
mental estimation pots that at ~1/8w) fairly trivial for an average vreg,
but i'm just a hobbyist -- I'll defer to you on this one, since you're the
resident expert.

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel
If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe

Sorry, but I won't use a flashlight to ease my typing in the dark :-)
I need my 2 hands to type...

I used a headlamp once, but it was not very comfortable.

The one I spoke of was an USB LED Stick Light, just like those:

https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Zero-14101-Stick-Light/dp/B0045XRK06/ref=sr_1_6/155-2094479-8414854?ie=UTF8&qid=1472323024&sr=8-6&keywords=usb+led+light

4 dead LEDs out of ten...

[Christopher Havel]

Yah, that's crap. Probably dependent on the USB spec to provide current
limiting... ugh.

I'd not have bought that.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Vincent Legoll

Post by Vincent Legoll
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel
If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe

Sorry, but I won't use a flashlight to ease my typing in the dark :-)
I need my 2 hands to type...
I used a headlamp once, but it was not very comfortable.
https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Zero-14101-Stick-Light/dp/B0045XRK06/ref=sr_1_6/155-2094479-8414854?ie=UTF8&qid=1472323024&sr=8-6&keywords=usb+led+light
4 dead LEDs out of ten...

nnniiiice... ok are there better ones with a metal bendable flex?

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
S

[Christopher Havel]

@ Luke -- not very nice at all. Those are Dollar Tree grade, I can see it
from here. Probably they're all the same -- most eBay crap is.

[Christopher Havel]

@ Luke -- just sent you something off-list because it's ~300% irrelevant to
EOMA-68. When you have a split second or two, could you poke your Gmail,
please...?

Post by Christopher Havel
@ Luke -- not very nice at all. Those are Dollar Tree grade, I can see it
from here. Probably they're all the same -- most eBay crap is.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

good point. there's room for it, too - there's an extra slot for
wires. hmmm might have to run the cable across the back of the
screen..

... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any
electronics... yeah doable.

l.
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross

some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite
up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the
top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachmen

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any
electronics... yeah doable.

what about the backlight switch so when the lid is closed its off, could
that be piggy backed/tapped into?

backlight switch? what backlight switch! hmmm... i think i forgot
to do one of those... oops!

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netboo

[Raphaël Mélotte]

I made a quick list of things an average user is used to have on a laptop,
that aren't on the eoma68 laptop housing. Maybe we could later add it to
the user wiki, along with ways to replace them with software when it's
possible ? (for example how the disks IO LED can be shown on screen, along
with the caps lock and num lock status,...)

- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has been
completely shutdown or not)
- Battery status: charging/discharging/low power
- Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to
- Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF
- Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do have a
led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the internal USB)


By the way I have kind of a dumb question and I guess it has already been
answered, but I did not find the answer on the mailing list: is there a
power button or a switch on the laptop housing and if not, how do you power
it on/off ? does it boot up by inserting the computer card into the housing
?

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any
electronics... yeah doable.

what about the backlight switch so when the lid is closed its off, could
that be piggy backed/tapped into?

backlight switch? what backlight switch! hmmm... i think i forgot
to do one of those... oops!
l.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

[Albert ARIBAUD]

Hi Raphël,

Le Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:59:39 +0200

Post by Raphaël Mélotte
I made a quick list of things an average user is used to have on a
laptop, that aren't on the eoma68 laptop housing. Maybe we could
later add it to the user wiki, along with ways to replace them with
software when it's possible ? (for example how the disks IO LED can
be shown on screen, along with the caps lock and num lock status,...)
- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has
been completely shutdown or not)
- Battery status: charging/discharging/low power
- Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to
- Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF
- Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do
have a led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the
internal USB)

All this can be realized some way or other through the touchpad
which is actually a TS+LCD. At least for those features for which the
main CPU is on, there is no problem: Wireless, BT, key lock status can
be shown there. Complex displays will be a bit trickier with the A20 off
and only the STM32 powered, but we can still manage some simple display
of e.g. the battery charging status.

Amicalement,

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Albert ARIBAUD

Post by Raphaël Mélotte
- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has
been completely shutdown or not)
- Battery status: charging/discharging/low power
- Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to
- Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF
- Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do
have a led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the
internal USB)

All this can be realized some way or other through the touchpad
which is actually a TS+LCD. At least for those features for which the
main CPU is on, there is no problem: Wireless, BT, key lock status can
be shown there. Complex displays will be a bit trickier with the A20 off
and only the STM32 powered, but we can still manage some simple display
of e.g. the battery charging status.

yep. it's all going to have to be managed through the STM32F072.
the plan is to use /dev/ttyACM0 endpoint (or similar) and a simple
serial protocol communicating between EOMA68 1st USB port and the
STM32F072.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@f

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross

some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite
up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the
top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.

Yep, that's the one (thinkpad T42p) it was located just next to the webcam,
over the display, angled towards the keyboard, with a slight overhang from
the case, so that the led was not directly visible. It was switchable with a
key Fn combo. Just ON/OFF, no real need for light levels.

Real nice idea, before backlit keyboards...

I'll take some closeup pics when I get back where it is stored.

I'd do a dual one, with LEDs far apart, to avoid making hand shadows.

[s***@posteo.net]

Post by Vincent Legoll
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross

some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite
up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the
top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.

Yep, that's the one (thinkpad T42p) it was located just next to the webcam,
over the display, angled towards the keyboard, with a slight overhang from
the case, so that the led was not directly visible. It was switchable with a
key Fn combo. Just ON/OFF, no real need for light levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_ThinkLight

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkLight

http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/keyboard-illumination-thinklight-or-backlight

https://web.archive.org/web/20130307081645/http://blog.lenovo.com/design/shedding-light-on-innovation

One of the key (ba-da-ching) ergonomic features of the Thinklight is
that the keyboard combo to switch them on or off is always bottom-left
key + top-right key. That way, you don't need to be able to see the keys
in order to switch the light on: you can still be sure, just by touch,
of being able to activate the correct ones. At the times when I've used
Thinkpads, I've appreciated this.

I don't know if any aspect of the Thinklight concept or its
implementation is patented or covered by design rights, etc. I would
hope not - it's just a light with a switch! - but "Method of swinging on
a swing", and all that...

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbook@

[Vincent Legoll]

Hello,

Post by s***@posteo.net
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_ThinkLight
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkLight
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/keyboard-illumination-thinklight-or-backlight
https://web.archive.org/web/20130307081645/http://blog.lenovo.com/design/shedding-light-on-innovation

Thanks for the links, they are useful

Post by s***@posteo.net
I don't know if any aspect of the Thinklight concept or its implementation
is patented or covered by design rights, etc. I would hope not - it's just a
light with a switch! - but "Method of swinging on a swing", and all that...

Looks like HP & DELL also have that feature, so hopefully it is not patented.

In fact I've never used a backlit keyboard so I cannot compare the 2 solutions,
but the LED was very effective for such a simple thing.

[Raphaël Mélotte]

Ok, I understand it a bit better now. Thank you :-)

I'm starting to realize I have been using laptops for years and I know
nothing about how they works.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Raphaël Mélotte

Of course ! I forgot the touchpad actually had an lcd. It will be so

great

to be able to have some of those displayed right below the keyboard ! :-)
I just saw the power button that's connected to the STM32F072 when

looking

for something else.
If I got it right, PCB1 receives the CPU card and powers PCB2

nope. PCB3 powers PCB2, which (through the STM32F) controls the
Battery / Power IC on PCB3, through which power to PCB1 is controlled.
yes it literally has to be that complex because EOMA68 power is
"OTG-like" i.e. may be *TWO-WAY*. so the STM32F072 is responsible for
monitoring (through I2C in communication with the Battery / Power IC)
what is going on, also receives notification about power provision
from the EOMA68 Computer Card, and makes decisions whether to put the
Power IC into "OTG Host" or "OTG Client" power modes.
look up the datasheet on the bq24193 for details.

which contains
the STM32F072. Does that mean that a CPU card have to be plugged in in

order

for the STM32F072 to be powered ?

incorrect. the STM32F072 is powered continuously it can never be
powered off (short of opening up the laptop case and physically
disconnecting the battery).
l.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Raphaël Mélotte

Post by Raphaël Mélotte
Ok, I understand it a bit better now. Thank you :-)
I'm starting to realize I have been using laptops for years and I know
nothing about how they works.

this isn't an ordinary laptop. good beginning into standard laptops
is to look at libreboot or coreboot. interface with hardware tells
you what's inside.

Post by Raphaël Mélotte

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Raphaël Mélotte

Of course ! I forgot the touchpad actually had an lcd. It will be so
great
to be able to have some of those displayed right below the keyboard ! :-)
I just saw the power button that's connected to the STM32F072 when
looking
for something else.
If I got it right, PCB1 receives the CPU card and powers PCB2

nope. PCB3 powers PCB2, which (through the STM32F) controls the
Battery / Power IC on PCB3, through which power to PCB1 is controlled.
yes it literally has to be that complex because EOMA68 power is
"OTG-like" i.e. may be *TWO-WAY*. so the STM32F072 is responsible for
monitoring (through I2C in communication with the Battery / Power IC)
what is going on, also receives notification about power provision
from the EOMA68 Computer Card, and makes decisions whether to put the
Power IC into "OTG Host" or "OTG Client" power modes.
look up the datasheet on the bq24193 for details.

which contains
the STM32F072. Does that mean that a CPU card have to be plugged in in
order
for the STM32F072 to be powered ?

incorrect. the STM32F072 is powered continuously it can never be
powered off (short of opening up the laptop case and physically
disconnecting the battery).
l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large at