[Arm-netbook] Interchangeable screen

[GaCuest]

Well, we are designing a handheld games console based on EOMA-68.

We have thought about doing an interchangeable screen. Users can buy the handheld games console without a display (more cheaper, users can use the HDMI of EOMA-68), with a 480p display or 720p display (more expensive) and upgrade it in a future. We would connect the TFT and touch screen connector on a PCB, and user may connect it with a connector to the base PCB.

We have thought about use neodymium magnet (some of 2x1 mm of them) to connect the case of the display+touch panel with the case of handheld games console. But we have some doubts about how to connect both PCB.

We've thought use a slim B2B connector like this: http://www.literature.molex.com/SQLImages/kelmscott/Molex/PDF_Images/987651-2331.PDF

The problem is that slim B2B connector have slow mating cycles (about 30-50 times). Any can help us about a better way to connect it?

Thanks. 

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[Paul Boddie]

Post by GaCuest
Well, we are designing a handheld games console based on EOMA-68.

Are you involved in this effort...?

http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/games_console/

Post by GaCuest
We have thought about doing an interchangeable screen. Users can buy the
handheld games console without a display (more cheaper, users can use the
HDMI of EOMA-68), with a 480p display or 720p display (more expensive) and
upgrade it in a future. We would connect the TFT and touch screen
connector on a PCB, and user may connect it with a connector to the base
PCB.

It certainly sounds like an interesting idea, and screens are definitely
things that age most obviously (or have at least aged very obviously in the
past). Plus, albeit not for a games console, having screen technology choices
like e-paper would be nice for certain kinds of devices.

Sadly, I don't have any opinions about connectors, but I thought I'd indicate
some kind of support for what you're doing. :-)

Paul

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[GaCuest]

Post by Paul Boddie

Post by GaCuest
Well, we are designing a handheld games console based on EOMA-68.

Are you involved in this effort...?
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/games_console/
 

Yes, we are involved in that project. Images are old (we have to change the design due to the interchangeable screen).

Post by Paul Boddie

Post by GaCuest
We have thought about doing an interchangeable screen. Users can buy the
handheld games console without a display (more cheaper, users can use the
HDMI of EOMA-68), with a 480p display or 720p display (more expensive) and
upgrade it in a future. We would connect the TFT and touch screen
connector on a PCB, and user may connect it with a connector to the base
PCB.

It certainly sounds like an interesting idea, and screens are definitely
things that age most obviously (or have at least aged very obviously in the
past). Plus, albeit not for a games console, having screen technology choices
like e-paper would be nice for certain kinds of devices.
Sadly, I don't have any opinions about connectors, but I thought I'd indicate
some kind of support for what you're doing. :-)
 

Thanks for your interest. Any help/support/suggestion that you can offer is good. Very thanks.

Post by Paul Boddie
Paul
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest
Well, we are designing a handheld games console based on EOMA-68.

yay! (and yes, paul, this one:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/games_console/ )

Post by GaCuest
We have thought about doing an interchangeable screen. Users can buy the handheld games console without a display (more cheaper, users can use the HDMI of EOMA-68), with a 480p display or 720p display (more expensive) and upgrade it in a future. We would connect the TFT and touch screen connector on a PCB, and user may connect it with a connector to the base PCB.
We have thought about use neodymium magnet (some of 2x1 mm of them) to connect the case of the display+touch panel with the case of handheld games console. But we have some doubts about how to connect both PCB.
We've thought use a slim B2B connector like this: http://www.literature.molex.com/SQLImages/kelmscott/Molex/PDF_Images/987651-2331.PDF
The problem is that slim B2B connector have slow mating cycles (about 30-50 times). Any can help us about a better way to connect it?

honestly, i don't recommend letting users consider it to be an
"end-user arbitrarily replaceable" component, but more of an "end user
*serviceable*" part i.e. they definitely definitely need some sort of
technical skill.

encouraging that view by requiring that they use a screwdriver or
other tool to get at the screen would, i feel, be something that you
should deliberately push users towards so that they feel uncomfortable
unless they are confident with tools and ESD precautions.

if the screen could be packaged in a small self-contained unit that
had absolutely no chance of physical damage, where it was possible to
"slot in" to a special set of guide rails where there was absolutely
no chance that the end user could possibly get it wrong, then i would
say "go for it".

however i think you'd agree that doing so hugely complicates the
casework design and leaves you with a lot more to consider right now.

my advice to you therefore would be to use an FPC cable at either end
and to have the LCD module screwed down, deliberately so that it's
clear that this is *absolutely not* something that you should expect a
3-year-old or a 90-year-old infirm and elderly non-technical person to
be able to handle.

once you have a first revision out the door, and have some cashflow,
by all means come back to the end-user removable LCD concept, but
right now i think you're asking too much.

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by GaCuest
Well, we are designing a handheld games console based on EOMA-68.

http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/games_console/ )

Post by GaCuest
We have thought about doing an interchangeable screen. Users can buy the handheld games

console without a display (more cheaper, users can use the HDMI of EOMA-68), with a 480p
display or 720p display (more expensive) and upgrade it in a future. We would connect
the TFT and touch screen connector on a PCB, and user may connect it with a connector to
the base PCB.

Post by GaCuest
We have thought about use neodymium magnet (some of 2x1 mm of them) to connect the case

of the display+touch panel with the case of handheld games console. But we have some doubts
about how to connect both PCB.

Post by GaCuest
We've thought use a slim B2B connector like this: http://www.literature.molex.com/SQLImages/kelmscott/Molex/PDF_Images/987651-2331.PDF
The problem is that slim B2B connector have slow mating cycles (about 30-50 times).

Any can help us about a better way to connect it?
honestly, i don't recommend letting users consider it to be an
"end-user arbitrarily replaceable" component, but more of an "end user
*serviceable*" part i.e. they definitely definitely need some sort of
technical skill.
encouraging that view by requiring that they use a screwdriver or
other tool to get at the screen would, i feel, be something that you
should deliberately push users towards so that they feel uncomfortable
unless they are confident with tools and ESD precautions.
if the screen could be packaged in a small self-contained unit that
had absolutely no chance of physical damage, where it was possible to
"slot in" to a special set of guide rails where there was absolutely
no chance that the end user could possibly get it wrong, then i would
say "go for it".
however i think you'd agree that doing so hugely complicates the
casework design and leaves you with a lot more to consider right now.
my advice to you therefore would be to use an FPC cable at either end
and to have the LCD module screwed down, deliberately so that it's
clear that this is *absolutely not* something that you should expect a
3-year-old or a 90-year-old infirm and elderly non-technical person to
be able to handle.
once you have a first revision out the door, and have some cashflow,
by all means come back to the end-user removable LCD concept, but
right now i think you're asking too much.

Yes, obviously change the display would be for more advanced users. We would sell the console in 3 packs (without display, with 480p display, and with 720p display). And in the future, the user can update the display itself (or send the console and we update it).

However, although change the screen would be for users with more knowledge, we want to make it as simple as possible, and perhaps using FPC cables and screws complicates it too.

Thanks.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest
However, although change the screen would be for users with more knowledge, we want to make it as simple as possible, and perhaps using FPC cables and screws complicates it too.

it's up to you. an FPC cable at least a replacement can be bought.
those connectors, once damaged, it's game over.

consider this: if a console is dropped - and it will get dropped -
those neodymium magnets aren't going to hold, are they? that will
result in those B2B connectors being ripped off the PCB, quite likely
damaging both the LCD board *and* the main board.

with screws, that's not going to happen, is it?

and even if it did (if someone dropped the console *explicitly* after
taking the screws out), well.... the FPC cable might get torn out, but
it will be the weakest chain in the link and would die before taking
out the actual FPC connectors.

even vibration or general handling is going to cause stress on those
B2B connectors unless you have some screws making absolutely,
absolutely sure that the two boards are not going to move. at all.

mechanically, the combination of a tiny B2B connector and neodymium
magnets seems like asking for trouble.

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest
However, although change the screen would be for users with more knowledge, we want

to make it as simple as possible, and perhaps using FPC cables and screws complicates
it too.
it's up to you. an FPC cable at least a replacement can be bought.
those connectors, once damaged, it's game over.
consider this: if a console is dropped - and it will get dropped -
those neodymium magnets aren't going to hold, are they? that will
result in those B2B connectors being ripped off the PCB, quite likely
damaging both the LCD board *and* the main board.
with screws, that's not going to happen, is it?
and even if it did (if someone dropped the console *explicitly* after
taking the screws out), well.... the FPC cable might get torn out, but
it will be the weakest chain in the link and would die before taking
out the actual FPC connectors.
even vibration or general handling is going to cause stress on those
B2B connectors unless you have some screws making absolutely,
absolutely sure that the two boards are not going to move. at all.
mechanically, the combination of a tiny B2B connector and neodymium
magnets seems like asking for trouble.

Maybe you're right and the best solution is to use FFC.

Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws. So any user can be safe with its screen. An advanced user who often changes the screen can always remove the screws and only use neodymium magnets.

Post by GaCuest
l.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest
Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws. So any user can be safe with its screen. An advanced user who often changes the screen can always remove the screws and only use neodymium magnets.

i think you'll find that even an advanced user may consider that they
could conceivably drop the unit. if there was some sort of plastic
"lock" so that it was impossible for the screen module to drop out
without extreme force, then you would be fine.

i think you should do some calculations to see what kind of strength
magnet would be needed to provide "anti-shock" level of attraction,
based on the weight of the components. i see "150 G" shock-force on
hard drives, normally, so that i assume would be a good number to
start from.

so now you would need to check the weight of the LCD plus its case
and PCB, then see what size neodymium magnet *at each corner* would be
sufficient to provide 150 gravities (10Nm) of attractive force.
that's 1500 Nm. i think you'll find that the magnets needed are far
bigger than you imagine might be needed.

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest
Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws. So any user can be safe

with its screen. An advanced user who often changes the screen can always remove the screws
and only use neodymium magnets.
i think you'll find that even an advanced user may consider that they
could conceivably drop the unit. if there was some sort of plastic
"lock" so that it was impossible for the screen module to drop out
without extreme force, then you would be fine.
i think you should do some calculations to see what kind of strength
magnet would be needed to provide "anti-shock" level of attraction,
based on the weight of the components. i see "150 G" shock-force on
hard drives, normally, so that i assume would be a good number to
start from.
so now you would need to check the weight of the LCD plus its case
and PCB, then see what size neodymium magnet *at each corner* would be
sufficient to provide 150 gravities (10Nm) of attractive force.
that's 1500 Nm. i think you'll find that the magnets needed are far
bigger than you imagine might be needed.
 

The heaviest screen we would use weighs 66 grams.

Post by GaCuest
l.

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[joem]

Post by GaCuest
Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws.

You know I noticed that 16 gbit fiber optic transcievers
are being sold for $15 in Aliexpress.

Time right me thinks for someone to 3D print a 2mm plastic
fiber connector and use whatever chippery inside these things
to make fiber interconnect for detachable screens.
At short distances, these fiber connectors should not pose a
communications problem. And 2mm plastic fiber can be cut
with a stanley blade without losing connection quality over such
short links.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by GaCuest
Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws.

You know I noticed that 16 gbit fiber optic transcievers
are being sold for $15 in Aliexpress.

coooool.

miguel, the main reason why i thought that joypad controls would be
ok to modularise (as demonstrated successfully by that x-box
controller) would be because the number of signal wires is
significantly less as well as being a greatly reduced data rate.
soo.... rather large (multi-millimetre) spring-loaded contacts (like
in SIM cards), absolutely no problem

by contrast for the lcd you're dealing with an extremely high number
of parallel signals at a MHz-level transmission rate in a very compact
amount of space. so you definitely can't use huge spring-loaded
contacts because they will radiate EMF like buggery. *but*... if you
can however as joe suggests decouple things, remove some of the
extreme requirements...

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem

Post by GaCuest
Perhaps the best solution is to use neodymium magnets and screws.

You know I noticed that 16 gbit fiber optic transcievers
are being sold for $15 in Aliexpress.

coooool.
miguel, the main reason why i thought that joypad controls would be
ok to modularise (as demonstrated successfully by that x-box
controller) would be because the number of signal wires is
significantly less as well as being a greatly reduced data rate.
soo.... rather large (multi-millimetre) spring-loaded contacts (like
in SIM cards), absolutely no problem
by contrast for the lcd you're dealing with an extremely high number
of parallel signals at a MHz-level transmission rate in a very compact
amount of space. so you definitely can't use huge spring-loaded
contacts because they will radiate EMF like buggery. *but*... if you
can however as joe suggests decouple things, remove some of the
extreme requirements...
 

We do not want to make a product difficult to design and expensive. Perhaps the idea of selling the console in 3 models and advanced users can change the screen being the best. Something similar to what happens on a PC.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Se

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest
We do not want to make a product difficult to design and expensive. Perhaps the idea of selling the console in 3 models and advanced users can change the screen being the best. Something similar to what happens on a PC.

yeah i feel that's the most sensible and safest model to follow.

l.

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[Hrvoje Lasic]

Maybe try to focus on one model in beginning, to make yourself easier job
going to market than proceed with three models. I don't know much about
your target audience and why you want three models (only I like your idea*,*
but my vision here is extremely limited) but believe me you will have more
then enough challenges on one model and by the time you have feedback from
customers you will gain some traction and have more than one good idea how
to improve product. Even if you have resources to make three models, maybe
you can direct this resources to make prepare some good game, to make
product more likable, playable etc something that could help your project
in different way...Just an thought...

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest
We do not want to make a product difficult to design and expensive.

Perhaps the idea of selling the console in 3 models and advanced users can
change the screen being the best. Something similar to what happens on a PC.
yeah i feel that's the most sensible and safest model to follow.
l.
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[GaCuest]

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Maybe try to focus on one model in beginning, to make yourself easier job
going to market than proceed with three models. I don't know much about
your target audience and why you want three models (only I like your idea*,*
but my vision here is extremely limited) but believe me you will have more
then enough challenges on one model and by the time you have feedback from
customers you will gain some traction and have more than one good idea how
to improve product. Even if you have resources to make three models, maybe
you can direct this resources to make prepare some good game, to make
product more likable, playable etc something that could help your project
in different way...Just an thought…

Well, we will not create three different models.

Simply we create a base model (without display) and based on it you can add modules with different displays. The problem is that not everyone will know to put the modules, so we will sell configurations with mounted display modules.

It is similar to BananaPi with different display models available. But with a case around the display-CTP to screw to the case of the game handheld games console.

Post by Hrvoje Lasic

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest
We do not want to make a product difficult to design and expensive.

Perhaps the idea of selling the console in 3 models and advanced users can
change the screen being the best. Something similar to what happens on a PC.
yeah i feel that's the most sensible and safest model to follow.
l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Maybe try to focus on one model in beginning, to make yourself easier job
going to market than proceed with three models. I don't know much about
your target audience and why you want three models (only I like your idea*,*
but my vision here is extremely limited) but believe me you will have more
then enough challenges on one model and by the time you have feedback from
customers you will gain some traction and have more than one good idea how
to improve product. Even if you have resources to make three models, maybe
you can direct this resources to make prepare some good game, to make
product more likable, playable etc something that could help your project
in different way...Just an thought…

Well, we will not create three different models.
Simply we create a base model (without display) and based on it you can add modules with different displays. The problem is that not everyone will know to put the modules, so we will sell configurations with mounted display modules.
It is similar to BananaPi with different display models available. But with a case around the display-CTP to screw to the case of the game handheld games console.

i just thought of something which you *really* really should
consider *well* before doing this type of modular design for LCDs.

the cost of even a 4-layer prototype board vs a 2-layer prototype
board is *literally* a 5 to 10x jump in price. $40 for 2 boards 1.5mm
thick can easily become $200 to $400 for 2 4-layer boards.

as you have *three* such boards... no, five because you have main
PCB, power PCB, and 3 LCD modules, consider trying to make the boards
2 layer ***BEFORE*** committing any other resources to the modular
concept.

as you have very short signals you should be ok but for goodness sake
make absolutely sure that you can route all the differential pairs
(MIPI, LVDS, whatever) on a single layer, directly from the connector,
directly to the IC, directly to the LCD connector. make absolutely
sure that you have room to surround and separate the differential
pairs with GND-tied vias.

take a look at this for example:

Loading Image...

in the bottom right, you can see the LVDS connector, and above it the
SN75LVDS83b. there appears to be some unspoken communication between
the designers of all the parts so that the LVDS differential pairs
line up *DIRECTLY*. i have places GND vias in between (as best i
can), i am not happy that the LVDS signals have to divert around them,
but the cost of boards if the vias are smaller goes up from $40 for 2
to over $150 for 2.

then, look in the left corner. that's a GL850G 4-port USB Hub IC.
those "GND" vias in between and surrounding the tracks go *all the
way* up the board, it took several days to arrange because i had to
adjust it and correct this arrangement several times. it's by no
means perfect, but it is what it is.

you can also see top middle, 7 wires in between GND tracks, those are
the SD/MMC lines, they're getting quite fast these days so i thought
it best to put GND guides around them.

strictly speaking from what i gather you are supposed to actually
isolate the GND tracks at the outer edges, not let them become part of
a larger GND plane. also you are supposed to leave a large distance
to any other components. also you are supposed to leave a large
distance in between each differential pair.

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Maybe try to focus on one model in beginning, to make yourself easier job
going to market than proceed with three models. I don't know much about
your target audience and why you want three models (only I like your idea*,*
but my vision here is extremely limited) but believe me you will have more
then enough challenges on one model and by the time you have feedback from
customers you will gain some traction and have more than one good idea how
to improve product. Even if you have resources to make three models, maybe
you can direct this resources to make prepare some good game, to make
product more likable, playable etc something that could help your project
in different way...Just an thought…

Well, we will not create three different models.
Simply we create a base model (without display) and based on it you can add modules with

different displays. The problem is that not everyone will know to put the modules, so
we will sell configurations with mounted display modules.

Post by GaCuest
It is similar to BananaPi with different display models available. But with a case around

the display-CTP to screw to the case of the game handheld games console.
i just thought of something which you *really* really should
consider *well* before doing this type of modular design for LCDs.
the cost of even a 4-layer prototype board vs a 2-layer prototype
board is *literally* a 5 to 10x jump in price. $40 for 2 boards 1.5mm
thick can easily become $200 to $400 for 2 4-layer boards.
as you have *three* such boards... no, five because you have main
PCB, power PCB, and 3 LCD modules, consider trying to make the boards
2 layer ***BEFORE*** committing any other resources to the modular
concept.
 

We have 3 PCB (first for all components and second/third for controls). Then we have two PCB for 480p display and 720p display (non-display model does not have that PCB).

Post by GaCuest
as you have very short signals you should be ok but for goodness sake
make absolutely sure that you can route all the differential pairs
(MIPI, LVDS, whatever) on a single layer, directly from the connector,
directly to the IC, directly to the LCD connector. make absolutely
sure that you have room to surround and separate the differential
pairs with GND-tied vias.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/laptop_2layer_pcb1.png
in the bottom right, you can see the LVDS connector, and above it the
SN75LVDS83b. there appears to be some unspoken communication between
the designers of all the parts so that the LVDS differential pairs
line up *DIRECTLY*. i have places GND vias in between (as best i
can), i am not happy that the LVDS signals have to divert around them,
but the cost of boards if the vias are smaller goes up from $40 for 2
to over $150 for 2.
then, look in the left corner. that's a GL850G 4-port USB Hub IC.
those "GND" vias in between and surrounding the tracks go *all the
way* up the board, it took several days to arrange because i had to
adjust it and correct this arrangement several times. it's by no
means perfect, but it is what it is.
you can also see top middle, 7 wires in between GND tracks, those are
the SD/MMC lines, they're getting quite fast these days so i thought
it best to put GND guides around them.
strictly speaking from what i gather you are supposed to actually
isolate the GND tracks at the outer edges, not let them become part of
a larger GND plane. also you are supposed to leave a large distance
to any other components. also you are supposed to leave a large
distance in between each differential pair.
 

Our idea is to do it in 2 layers.

The only problem is that the PCMCIA connector is on the bottom layer and the FFC connector for the display goes on top layer. Anyway, put the display in another PCB and attach using FFC makes the design easier because we can put the FFC connector where we want.

Thanks for all the tips. I can not use the tips because I do not know about PCB designs but I hope the tips will be useful to Daniel.

Post by GaCuest
l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by GaCuest
Our idea is to do it in 2 layers.
The only problem is that the PCMCIA connector is on the bottom layer and the FFC connector for the display goes on top layer.

you shouuuld be able to get away with 1 via per connection but for
goodness sake make sure there are GND vias very close by.

l.

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[GaCuest]

Post by GaCuest

Post by GaCuest
Our idea is to do it in 2 layers.
The only problem is that the PCMCIA connector is on the bottom layer and the FFC connector

for the display goes on top layer.
you shouuuld be able to get away with 1 via per connection but for
goodness sake make sure there are GND vias very close by.
 

We can put the connector where we want, so there would be no problem. I think Daniel read this mailing list, so I assume he will see your tips. Thanks!

Post by GaCuest
l.
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