Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Impedance
Richard Wilbur
2017-08-03 11:37:21 UTC
Permalink
HDMI Layout Notes
for EOMA68 Cards
by Richard Wilbur

Impedance

Trace Impedance:
100 Ohm +/-15% differential[11][12], 55 Ohm +/-15% single-ended[3]
(90 Ohm +/-15% differential, 50 Ohm +/-15% single-ended[3])

There seems to be some small disagreement between sources on the
differential trace impedance for HDMI high-speed signals.
Chrontel[11], Texas Instruments[12], and JAE[13] all quote 100 Ohm but
with different tolerances--Chrontel +/-10%, Texas Instruments +/-15%,
JAE +/-25% (in connector area[13])--while Toradex[3] quotes the goal
as 90 Ohm +/-15%. These ranges overlap but the normal variation in
manufacturing is more likely to exceed the limits of the acceptable
range if we design to the wrong goal!

90 Ohm +/-15% = [76.5, 103.5] Ohm
100 Ohm +/-15% = [85, 115] Ohm

It seems the consensus is on 100 Ohm +/-15% for the differential impedance.

Toradex mentions something else which helps with the selection of
design parameters: "The differential impedance is always smaller than
twice the single-ended impedance"

Z(differential) < 2 * Z(single-ended)[14]
=> Z(single-ended) > Z(differential) / 2

Thus, if we wish to have Z(differential) = 100 Ohm +/-15%, we should
choose the single-ended impedance such that

Z(single-ended) > (100 Ohm +/-15%) / 2 = 50 Ohm +/-7.5%

Toradex suggests 55 Ohm single-ended impedance to coincide with 100
Ohm differential impedance.[15]

In order to model and calculate expected impedance we need to describe
the geometry of the arrangement of traces, reference planes, and
dielectric layers in the PCB.

PCB Dimensions (not drawn to scale or even to correct aspect ratio):
______
^
T (thickness of copper in signal layer)
v
_______________________________
^
H (thickness or height of insulator)
v
_______________________________
reference plane (GND or Power)
_______________________________

The 6-layer FR-4 PCB chosen for EOMA68-A20 has the following
characteristic dimensions:
total thickness of PCB = 1.2mm ~= 47.3mil
H(height of dielectric between outer copper layer and adjacent
reference plane) = 6.4mil
copper cladding = 1oz
min{W(trace width)} = 5mil
min{S(trace-to-trace space)} = 5mil
min{diameter(plated through-hole vias)} = 6mil
diameter(via surround/pad) = 12mil

To calculate the thickness (T) of 1 ounce copper requires several
conversion factors and the density of copper. "1 ounce copper" refers
to the thickness of 1 ounce (avoirdupois versus troy) of copper spread
over 1 square foot. There is at least one web site which purports to
calculate the thickness in mils of a particular weight of copper
cladding[16], but they use some pretty heavy approximations for
otherwise well-known conversion factors and conclude that 1.37 mil = 1
oz Cu. I used the standard unit conversion factors as shown below:

Given:
Areal density = 1 oz Cu / ft^2

Exact conversion factors:
1 (avoirdupois) oz = 28.349523125g [17]
1 ft^2 = (1ft * 12in/1ft * 2.54cm/1in)^2 = (30.48cm)^2

Empirical value:
Density (Cu pure) rho = 8.96 g / cm^3 [18][19: CRC, LNG]

Calculation:
T = areal density(given) * conversion(oz->g) / (volume density) /
conversion(ft->cm)^2[16]
T = 1 oz Cu / ft^2 * 28.349523125g / 1 oz * 1 cm^3 Cu / 8.96 g Cu * 1
ft^2 / (30.48cm)^2
= 0.003405711cm Cu = 0.03405711mm * 1in / 25.4mm * 1000mil / 1in = 1.34mil Cu
(Using 8.92 gCu / cm^3 [19: WEL] => T = 1.35mil Cu)

The most well-attested value for copper's density was 8.96 g/cm^3
yielding T = 1.34mil Cu. Illustrating the sensitivity of the
calculation to variation of parameters, the minority density value of
8.92 g/cm^3 yielded T = 1.35mil Cu.

Microstrip PCB Dimensions (not drawn to scale or even to correct aspect ratio):

<-W-><--- S ---><-W-><----- D ----->
__IIIII___________IIIII___________________IIIII
Signal:+ - x
W = design width of trace
S = spacing between traces of differential pair (+,-)
D = spacing to unrelated signal "x" (another pair, ground shield, etc.)

Texas Instruments gives some equations to help calculate trace
geometries for 100 Ohm differential impedance.[12]

Z(differential) = 2 * Z(single-ended) * (1 - 0.48 * exp(-0.96 * S / H))
Z(single-ended) = 88.75/sqrt(relative permittivity + 1.47) * ln(5.97 *
H / (0.8 * W + T))

Since the board material and manufacturing process specify the parameters:
relative permittivity(FR-4) = 4.4[1]
H = 6.4mil
T = 1.34mil
and the HDMI standard specifies:
Z(differential) = 100 Ohm
we have two equations in three unknowns:
Z(single-ended), W, S

Given the guidance that Z(single-ended) > 50 Ohm, we can solve the
second equation for W(Z(single-ended)),

W<mils> = 7.463 * H * exp(-Z(single-ended) * sqrt(relative
permittivity + 1.47) / 88.75) -1.25 * T

Then select a value for Z(single-ended), turn the crank and see what
value of W we come up with. After looking at the result we may decide
to select a different value for Z(single-ended) and calculate the
concomitant W in order to find a routable trace width and a usable
single-ended impedance.

Let's try this for Z(single-ended) = 55 Ohm.
W(Z(single-ended) = 55 Ohm) = 7.463 * 6.4mil * exp (-55 Ohm * sqrt(4.4
+ 1.47)/88.75) - 1.25 * 1.34mil
= 8.97mil

Then we can solve the equation that gives differential impedance for
S, plug in our values for single-ended and differential impedance and
see what trace-spacing (S) we get.

S = -H / 0.96 * ln((2 * Z(single-ended) - Z(differential)) / 0.96 /
Z(single-ended))
S(Z(single-ended) = 55 Ohm) = -6.4mil / 0.96 * ln((2 * 55 Ohm - 100
Ohm) / 0.96 / 55 Ohm)
= 11.1mil

The distance, D, to adjacent signal pairs and shield traces is suggested to be,
D >= 3 * S[12]
with the caveat that running a ground shield trace on only one side
can create an imbalance that increases EMI. "Ground trace shields
should have a scattering of vias to the underlying ground plane."[12]

Z(single-ended) W<mil> S<mil> min{D}<mil>
<Ohm>
51 10.2 21.3 63.9
55 8.97 11.1 33.3
60.1 7.58 7.00 21.0
64.6 6.51 5.02 15.1
Table of single-ended impedances and associated trace width and
spacing.[These numbers are based on formulas which are approximations
with error bounds of +/-10%.][12]

Here we can see the effect of changing the single-ended impedance on
width and spacing of traces in a differential pair of given
differential impedance. By raising the single-ended impedance we
reduced both the width of the traces and also the spacing. The other
outgrowth is that the common-mode rejection is improved by lowering
the single-ended impedance of the traces. Common-mode signal stems
from other signals (EMI) coupled into the traces, uncompensated
intra-pair skew, and imperfect differential signal drivers at the
source. Common-mode signal will radiate (EMI) from circuit board
traces. So we have a trade-off to consider:
1. We can minimize common-mode signal by lowering single-ended
impedance which increases the trace width and spacing for a given
differential impedance.
2. This is limited by the fact that, for a microstrip differential
pair, the single-ended impedance is greater than half the differential
impedance.

Looking at the single-ended impedance values, the difference between
51 Ohm and 64.6 Ohm is an increase of less than 30% and thus won't
drastically change the common-mode performance, so my inclination if
you're strapped for space would be to use the higher single-ended
impedance with 6.5mil wide traces spaced apart 5mils and try for
15mils between pairs.

Reviewing with reference to TI's "Routing Guidelines"[20]:
i. Use the smallest trace spacing possible, which usually is
specified by your PCB vendor: in our case 5 mils
ii. Make sure the geometries obey:
a. S < H; (S = 5mil) < (H = 6.4mil)
b. S < W; (S = 5mil) < (W = 6.5mil)
c. W < 2H; (W = 6.5mil) < (2H = 12.8mil)
d. D > 2S = 10mil
Looks like we abide by their guidelines if we use the 64.6 Ohm
single-ended impedance values. It seems the distance, D, to the next
trace is somewhat flexible because in this reference it is reduced
from 3S to 2S. (I'm sure 3S is better than 2S, if you have the
space.)

Ground Planes under Pads

Toradex mentions the lower impedance between wide traces and the
reference plane causing impedance mismatch at large pads for
components and connectors.[21] The width of the pads in the
illustration are 5-6x the width of the traces connecting to them. On
the micro-HDMI connector the width of the pads is around 0.2mm (JAE
DC3R019JA7R1500 pad width = 0.23 +/-0.03 mm ~= 9.1 +/- 1.1 mil), where
the smallest trace we can have is 5 mil thus our greatest proportion
is 10.2 mil / 5 mil ~ 2. So this is probably less of a problem than
if the pads were 5-6 times the width of our traces. In fact if we
compare the dimensions of the connector pads and spacing (which is
about the same as pad width) to those of the trace width and spacing
for 55 Ohm single-ended impedance in the table above, they nearly
match. Thus I don't think this will be a big issue for this board
because while the pads are wider than our traces, they're spaced about
as far apart as we would space traces that are that wide to still get
100 Ohm differential impedance.

Via Impedance

If and when we start supporting HDMI v2.0+ we will need to tune the
impedance of our signal vias even more keenly as our signals will
surpass the 10GHz barrier.[22] Presently we also have the happy
situation that since our high-frequency signal vias always connect
between top and bottom layers, our stub length is 0 on signal vias.
Creating transparent (tuned) vias requires familiarity with a 3-D EM
simulator and some time to set up, run, evaluate results of
simulations, and then repeat in order to tune the impedance. (See
section below "Libre Field Solvers".)
We can still take some of the recommendations to heart:
1. Use minimal size vias for high-frequency traces to reduce
parasitic capacitance.[23]
2. Place the two vias of the differential pair in close proximity to
increase capacitive coupling between the signals.(smaller via pitch)
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into oval shared antipads (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
4. Place ground vias next to signal vias to provide ground-return
paths.[22, Figure 2]

References:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FR-4
[2] Toradex, page 21
[3] Toradex, page 38
[4] TI, page 4
[5] Chrontel, page 5
[6] https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/hdmi-inter-intra-pair-skew-inter-pair-synchronization.75801/
[7] https://e2e.ti.com/support/interface/high_speed_interface/f/138/t/267205
[8] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224650488_Effects_of_skew_on_EMI_for_HDMI_connectors_and_cables
[9] Toradex, page 17, Figures 12 & 13
[10] Toradex, pages 22-23
[11] Chrontel, page 4
[12] TI, page 5
[13] JAE, page 1
[14] Toradex, page 12
[15] Toradex, page 13, Table 3
[16] http://referencedesigner.com/cal/cal_02.php
[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ounce#International_avoirdupois_ounce
[18] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper
[19] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densities_of_the_elements_(data_page)
[20] TI, page 8
[21] Toradex, pages 18-19, Figure 16
[22] https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2015/06/10/differential-pairs-four-things-you-need-to-know-about-vias
[23] TI, page 9

Bibliography:

Chrontel: Application Note AN-B026, "PCB Layout and Design Guide for
CH7101A HDMI to VGA Converter",
http://www.chrontel.com/media/Application%20Notes/AN-B026%20Rev0.2.pdf

Japan Aviation Electronics Industry, Ltd. (JAE): "HDMI Standard Type
D HDMI Micro Connector: DC3 Series", Connector MB-0233-2, May 2013,
http://www.jae.com/z-en/pdf_download_exec.cfm?param=MB-0233-2E_DC3.pdf

Texas Instruments (TI): "HDMI Design Guide", High-Speed Interface
Products, June 2007,
http://e2e.ti.com/cfs-file/__key/telligent-evolution-components-attachments/00-138-01-00-00-10-65-80/Texas-Instruments-HDMI-Design-Guide.pdf

Toradex: "Layout Design Guide", v1.0, 14 April 2015,
http://docs.toradex.com/102492-layout-design-guide.pdf

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-03 13:11:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
Here we can see the effect of changing the single-ended impedance on
width and spacing of traces in a differential pair of given
differential impedance. By raising the single-ended impedance we
reduced both the width of the traces and also the spacing.
i know from DDR3 that they can change (dynamically) the end-impedance
both on the SoC and in the DDR3 RAM ICs. it means you can stick with
a particular track width and spacing then have the SoC and DDR3 ICs
adjust each end to suit.
Post by Richard Wilbur
Toradex mentions the lower impedance between wide traces and the
reference plane causing impedance mismatch at large pads for
components and connectors.[21]
yehyeh. fortunately the ones on the DC3 connector are tiny.

i think you're saying we're ok here with 5mil track, 5mil spacing,
and lots and lots of ground vias. i can't get them in between the
diff-pairs though.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2017-08-03 13:59:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
Here we can see the effect of changing the single-ended impedance on
width and spacing of traces in a differential pair of given
differential impedance. By raising the single-ended impedance we
reduced both the width of the traces and also the spacing.
i know from DDR3 that they can change (dynamically) the end-impedance
both on the SoC and in the DDR3 RAM ICs. it means you can stick with
a particular track width and spacing then have the SoC and DDR3 ICs
adjust each end to suit.
Interesting trick with the SoC and DDR3 RAM ICs. What I was talking
about is how we can change the single-ended impedance of our design
while holding the differential impedance at 100 Ohm and what effect
that has on trace width and spacing. If we reduce the trace width and
spacing but maintain 100 Ohm differential impedance, our single-ended
impedance goes up! It's not exactly rocket science. When we narrow
the traces we have less capacitive coupling to ground so you might
expect our single-ended impedance would rise.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Richard Wilbur
Toradex mentions the lower impedance between wide traces and the
reference plane causing impedance mismatch at large pads for
components and connectors.[21]
yehyeh. fortunately the ones on the DC3 connector are tiny.
i think you're saying we're ok here with 5mil track, 5mil spacing,
and lots and lots of ground vias. i can't get them in between the
diff-pairs though.
Close. What I am saying is that the DC3 connector pads and spacing
actually look pretty close to row 2 of the table (55 Ohm single-ended
impedance) for 100 Ohm differential trace geometries. So I don't
think the DC3 lands will cause a large impedance discontinuity. In
other words no need to obstruct the ground reference plane from under
the DC3 lands.

What I said earlier is that I would recommend the following geometry
for the transmission lines:
trace width = 6.5mil
trace spacing = 5mil
offset from other copper in the same layer >= 10mil (ground shield
trace, other differential pair, etc.)

We'll primarily need ground vias where the signal changes layers and
thus the return current needs to change from one ground reference
layer to the other. If we do a pretty decent job of squashing the
skew and the differential drivers on the chip give us a signal with
little common-mode energy to start with, we won't need much of any
shielding between pairs. Since the ground shield will be asymmetric
(only on one side of a pair) I would recommend keeping it as far away
as possible so it will have less asymmetric effect on the impedance.

I have two more sections in mind: Libre Field Solvers and
Recommendations (Specific to this Layout).
The first is more than half researched and written. I think it can be
finished in another couple hours.
The second is a little more fluid as I plan to make some
recommendations/suggestions and ask some questions which will allow me
to refine those recommendations or suggestions.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-03 15:28:29 UTC
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Post by Richard Wilbur
What I said earlier is that I would recommend the following geometry
trace width = 6.5mil
there's not enough space. when i said "there's not enough space" i
*really meant*, "there's not enough space". it *might* be possible to
increase to 5.1 mil but i think you'd agree it would not be worth it.

the reason that there's not enough space is because:

the processor is only about 4.5mm away from the edge of the board.
this used to be only 3.5mm.

there is no way to further increase the width of the board.

there is no way that i am moving the processor. or the DDR3 RAM ICs.

the 24mhz XTAL is *right* next to the damn HDMI signals. as it's
that close, it blocks layer 1.

moving the XTAL to layer 6 is a bad idea (vias) but even if you did
that it *still* would not help... because the PMIC components are in
the way on layer 1 further down the board.

the space that would normally be used to drop the HDMI signals onto
layer 6 immediately they come out the vias is not available because
there are tracks on both layer 3 and layer 6 which are in the way (and
cannot be routed anywhere else)

ok i did a video explaining:


l.

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Vincent Legoll
2017-08-03 15:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

does all that means HDMI output will be flakey ?
--
Vincent Legoll

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Richard Wilbur
2017-08-03 22:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vincent Legoll
does all that means HDMI output will be flakey ?
Not if we creatively approach the problems at hand. In other words we
are not quitting, and neither are we finished yet.

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Richard Wilbur
2017-08-03 19:04:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Richard Wilbur
What I said earlier is that I would recommend the following geometry
trace width = 6.5mil
there's not enough space. when i said "there's not enough space" i
*really meant*, "there's not enough space". it *might* be possible to
increase to 5.1 mil but i think you'd agree it would not be worth it.
[...]

Thanks for the explanation. Sorry, I didn't remember how tight things
were. I was thinking about how we now have more space--just not that
much more space.

So, I ran some numbers the other direction through the equations to
see what impedance we can expect from the connector lands and smaller
trace sizes without smaller trace separation:

The good news is it looks like we are still within the +/-15% of 100
Ohm. I'll explain more later.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok i did a video explaining: http://youtu.be/vFbzAmLSHPY
Thanks for the video, I watched the first 55s and thus this reply.
I'll finish watching and then tie up loose ends.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-04 05:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Wilbur
The good news is it looks like we are still within the +/-15% of 100
Ohm. I'll explain more later.
ok :)
Post by Richard Wilbur
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok i did a video explaining: http://youtu.be/vFbzAmLSHPY
Thanks for the video, I watched the first 55s and thus this reply.
I'll finish watching and then tie up loose ends.
the one thing to remember is, with this track size and separation
there _have_ been successful boards... just with different connectors
that are no longer available.

most of the video is explaining how it's not possible to move things
about. but towards the end (last couple of mins) i focus on the
connector, explaining how the vias come up around the diamond-shaped
pads.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2017-08-03 22:53:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Richard Wilbur
What I said earlier is that I would recommend the following geometry
trace width = 6.5mil
there's not enough space. when i said "there's not enough space" i
*really meant*, "there's not enough space". it *might* be possible to
increase to 5.1 mil but i think you'd agree it would not be worth it.
Below find the revised treatment of the latter part of the discussion
in light of the facts you enumerated.

"""
Turns out there isn't enough room to route 6.5mil traces.

W<mil> S<mil> Z(single-ended) Z(differential)
<Ohm> <Ohm>
5 5 72.1 111
5.1 5 71.5 111
5.2 5 71.0 110
*Table* of single-ended and differential impedances for geometries
constrained by lack of board space.

These impedances fall in the +/-15% margin of the nominal 100 Ohm
differential impedance [85,115]Ohm.

Reviewing with reference to TI's "Routing Guidelines"[20]:
i. Use the smallest trace spacing possible, which usually is
specified by your PCB vendor: in our case 5 mils
ii. Make sure the geometries obey:
a. S < H; (S = 5mil) < (H = 6.4mil)
b. S < W; (S = 5mil) < (W = 5.1mil)
c. W < 2H; (W = 5.1mil) < (2H = 12.8mil)
d. D > 2S = 10mil
Looks like we abide by their guidelines if we use the 64.6 Ohm
single-ended impedance values. Likewise, we can still meet all the
margins if we use 5.1mil trace width and 5mil spacing. It seems the
distance, D, to the next trace is somewhat flexible because in this
reference it is reduced from 3S to 2S. (I'm sure 3S is better than
2S, if you have the space.)

Ground Planes under Pads

Toradex mentions the lower impedance between wide traces and the
reference plane causing impedance mismatch at large pads for
components and connectors.[21] The width of the pads in the
illustration are 5-6x the width of the traces connecting to them. On
the micro-HDMI connector the width of the pads is around 0.2mm (JAE
DC3R019JA7R1500 pad width = 0.23 +/-0.03 mm ~= 9.1 +/- 1.2 mil), and
the pads are lined up on 0.4mm centers. This implies that the spacing
is 0.4mm - (0.23 +/-0.03mm) = 0.17 -/+0.03mm ~= 6.7 +/-1.2mil
W<mil> S<mil> Z(single-ended) Z(differential)
<Ohm> <Ohm>
7.9 5.5 58.9 93.0 [DC3 lands, w-tol, s-tol]
7.9 7.9 58.9 100 [DC3 lands, w-tol, s+tol]
9.1 6.7 54.5 89.9 [DC3 lands, nominal]
10.3 5.5 50.7 80.0 [DC3 lands, w+tol, s-tol]
10.3 7.9 50.7 86.5 [DC3 lands, w+tol, s+tol]
*Table* of single-ended and differential impedances for geometries
constrained by micro HDMI connector lands.

These differential impedances are all within JAE's 100 Ohm +/-25% =
[75,125] Ohm. The best thing to do here would most likely be to ease
the transition from the main trace impedance to the connector
impedance over a distance. Where they are close to a via, we could
ease up to the via width from the normal trace width over a few mil.

Via Impedance

If and when we start supporting HDMI v2.0+ we will need to tune the
impedance of our signal vias even more keenly as our signals will
surpass the 10GHz barrier.[22] Presently we also have the happy
situation that since our high-frequency signal vias always connect
between top and bottom layers, our stub length is 0 on signal vias.
Creating transparent (tuned) vias requires familiarity with a 3-D EM
simulator and some time to set up, run, evaluate results of
simulations, and then repeat in order to tune the impedance. (See
section below "Libre Field Solvers".)

We can still take some of the recommendations to heart:
1. Use minimal size vias for high-frequency traces to reduce
parasitic capacitance.[23]
2. Place the two vias of the differential pair in close proximity to
increase capacitive coupling between the signals.(smaller via pitch)
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into an oval shared antipad (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
4. Place ground vias next to signal vias to provide low-impedance
ground-return paths.[22, Figure 2]
"""

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-04 07:19:05 UTC
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On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
1. Use minimal size vias for high-frequency traces to reduce
parasitic capacitance.[23]
yep. 0402 all the way round. can't go smaller as it risks the drill
hitting the edge of the ring.
Post by Richard Wilbur
2. Place the two vias of the differential pair in close proximity to
increase capacitive coupling between the signals.(smaller via pitch)
yep. doing that.
Post by Richard Wilbur
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into an oval shared antipad (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
oo. never heard of this practice. never heard of "anti-pads"
either! so sorry, if you put some references i missed them.
Post by Richard Wilbur
4. Place ground vias next to signal vias to provide low-impedance
ground-return paths.[22, Figure 2]
yep doing that.

l.

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m***@gmail.com
2017-08-04 07:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into an oval shared antipad (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
oo. never heard of this practice. never heard of "anti-pads"
either! so sorry, if you put some references i missed them.
Loading Image...

From
https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2015/06/10/differential-pairs-four-things-you-need-to-know-about-vias

Basically a barrier between a via and a passing layer. Something
default to prevent shorting.

With differentals have them combined so there is nothing in between
them in a horizontal line/z axis as well.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-04 10:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into an oval shared antipad (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
oo. never heard of this practice. never heard of "anti-pads"
either! so sorry, if you put some references i missed them.
https://e2e.ti.com/cfs-file/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-03-25/3124.Fig1.jpg
From
https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2015/06/10/differential-pairs-four-things-you-need-to-know-about-vias
Basically a barrier between a via and a passing layer. Something
default to prevent shorting.
oh, ok - just a hole where you'd expect one to be :) didn't know its
name was "anti-pad".
Post by m***@gmail.com
With differentals have them combined so there is nothing in between
them in a horizontal line/z axis as well.
turns out that the anti-pads from PADS are big enough to create a figure-8.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2017-08-04 18:06:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
3. Instead of using two separate anti-pads on signal vias, combine
them into an oval shared antipad (on every layer) to reduce parasitic
capacitance.
oo. never heard of this practice. never heard of "anti-pads"
either! so sorry, if you put some references i missed them.
[...]
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Basically a barrier between a via and a passing layer. Something
default to prevent shorting.
oh, ok - just a hole where you'd expect one to be :) didn't know its
name was "anti-pad".
Sorry for not explaining very well and no references. Thank you Mike
for adding both to the discussion.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
With differentals have them combined so there is nothing in between
them in a horizontal line/z axis as well.
turns out that the anti-pads from PADS are big enough to create a figure-8.
That's cool. The reason for an oval (or ellipse) shape instead of a
figure-8, if you can muster an oval or ellipse, is that the sharp
points greatly concentrate electric fields--leading to
capacitance--which is pretty much the opposite effect of a smooth
curve.

I'm glad to hear that successful HDMI layouts have been achieved using
5mil width, 5mil spacing for differential pairs. The reason I
recommended 5.1mil width, 5mil spacing is because TI's geometry
recommendation includes the condition width > spacing. Sounds like
that is not a necessary condition for a working board.

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m***@gmail.com
2017-08-04 07:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok i did a video explaining: http://youtu.be/vFbzAmLSHPY
Informative. Might I suggest a screen recorder? Although that might be
a bit more work in post editing, it might be more clear and .

The middle GND traces could use a bit more riveting(via's). There's
space in the corners. The outer HDMI GND trace, on the inner side of
the board, might benefit from some riveting like to one on the outer
side.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-08-04 10:14:59 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok i did a video explaining: http://youtu.be/vFbzAmLSHPY
Informative. Might I suggest a screen recorder? Although that might be
a bit more work in post editing, it might be more clear and .
ahh...... this screen's 3000x1800 :)
Post by m***@gmail.com
The middle GND traces could use a bit more riveting(via's). There's
space in the corners. The outer HDMI GND trace, on the inner side of
the board, might benefit from some riveting like to one on the outer
side.
i can get some more in on the right lower side where the traces begin
to turn 45 degrees upwards after a long run from the processor - i
can't get any on the other side (right upper) because the 1206
capacitors for IPSOUT and 5VIN are in the way.

l.

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