[Arm-netbook] updates from eoma68-a20

[zap]

I heard you considering only sending 1gb of ram instead of 2gb of ram. 
I just wanted to ask, if it comes down to it, if you would be willing to
still send 2gb of ram and have uboot preloaded even if it costs a little
extra... for those of us who really need the 2gb of ram. 4gb would be
nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't
use virtualization for any reason. :)

It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm
processor...  This makes me think that I really will want what your
selling more than I have before.  but yeah, this christmas which is a
long way away, I know I have been saying this for a while, but with
meltdown I believe I have good reason to say I will purchase one.

PS, this applies mostly if the date of the eoma68-a20 libre laptop
doesn't have to be sent later then expected...

heh... :) I am grateful this opportunity even exists.

Oh and for those on the mailing list who don't know this, A20 is
apparently immune to meltdown and spectre. Because it is part of armv7. 
So yeah, that really motivates me!

I still hope for better though in the future... Shakti anyone? ;)


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Post by zap
I heard you considering only sending 1gb of ram instead of 2gb of ram.
I just wanted to ask, if it comes down to it, if you would be willing to
still send 2gb of ram and have uboot preloaded even if it costs a little
extra... for those of us who really need the 2gb of ram.

ok, so anything that goes beyond the available budget is just.... not
possible. a mixture of RAM ICs would require an evaluation and a
quote on exactly how much it would cost to split - and massively
complicate - both the *ordering* of the RAM ICs *and* the production
of the PCBs.

so it may turn out that consideration of the proposed idea would be
MASSIVELY more expensive even than doing all PCBs @ 2GB of RAM.

a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option
to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more
money.

Post by zap
4gb would be
nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't
use virtualization for any reason. :)

4gb physical RAM addressing has never been possible with any
Allwinner processor, ever. bit of an oversight on their part.

Post by zap
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm
processor...

correct.

Post by zap
heh... :) I am grateful this opportunity even exists.

appreciated

Post by zap
Oh and for those on the mailing list who don't know this, A20 is
apparently immune to meltdown and spectre. Because it is part of armv7.
So yeah, that really motivates me!
I still hope for better though in the future... Shakti anyone? ;)

:)

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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok, so anything that goes beyond the available budget is just.... not
possible. a mixture of RAM ICs would require an evaluation and a
quote on exactly how much it would cost to split - and massively
complicate - both the *ordering* of the RAM ICs *and* the production
of the PCBs.
so it may turn out that consideration of the proposed idea would be
a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option
to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more
money.

Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need
to do it for one person. Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
request + money aka...



If more money can be found however, everyone.  Though I dunno how much
you would need......

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
4gb would be
nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't
use virtualization for any reason. :)

4gb physical RAM addressing has never been possible with any
Allwinner processor, ever. bit of an oversight on their part.

I would agree

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm
processor...

correct.

I thought so... :)

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Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option
to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more
money.

Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need
to do it for one person. Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
request + money aka..>
If more money can be found however, everyone.  Though I dunno how much
you would need......

Given that a prototype batch of ten runs $2000 USD, I'd guess this is a
floor for the increased cost without considering the component cost.
Given the age of the processor and related components, this may be a high
bar to reach.

If there is interest, however, is it possible to use Crowd Supply or
another crowd funding site to see if there is adequate interest in
helping cover the additional budget required? I'd certainly be
interested in the possibility.

Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm
processor...

correct.

I thought so... :)

I've just been doing some reading. IIUC, Meltdown is specific to Intel
for a decade, and maybe a couple of very new/forthcoming processors.
Spectre, on the other hand, is much more widespread, but without the
Meltdown exploit to leverage a path in, it's very difficult to
successfully attack a system.

Tor
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Post by zap
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need
to do it for one person.

oh. ok. well, um... a _lot_. as in, it would be a custom board,
done by hand. 10 PCBs tend to cost about $2000 all-in, so $200 would
not be unreasonable.

basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown
costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below
1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll
consider it.

Post by zap
Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much
you would need......

i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are
actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get
hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are
available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless
you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.

when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple
products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed
with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture
anything else".

l.

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[Christopher Havel]

Oy, Luke, pardon a bit of an oddball idea -- my specialty, everyone elses'
headache, typically -- but if you're desperate enough -- how much would it
cost to buy a fat stack of DIMMs with the right chips and hire some bored
dude with a hot air machine or reballing station and the skill to use it,
to extract what you need and recycle the rest...?

I know that's not the, er, usual way of acquiring chips of /any/ kind, but
it sounds like we're approaching throw-it-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks
territory anyways, so I thought I'd offer that one up, see how much glue it
has to it :P
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On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:35 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel
Oy, Luke, pardon a bit of an oddball idea -- my specialty, everyone elses'
headache, typically -- but if you're desperate enough -- how much would it
cost to buy a fat stack of DIMMs with the right chips and hire some bored
dude with a hot air machine or reballing station and the skill to use it,
to extract what you need and recycle the rest...?

bleugh :) the problem is they need to be re-balled. as in, the
solder balls on the underside completely cleaned off, then a new set
added. i mean it can be done, but someone has to evaluate the cost
of doing it.

l.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the problem is they need to be re-balled.

Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) --
but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire, or a
lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between
friends?
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:45 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the problem is they need to be re-balled.

Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) --
but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire, or a
lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between
friends?

the solder balls on BGA and FBGA are specifically calculated to be a
size that will spread evenly and create a successful circuit, whilst
at the same time being of exactly the right size to support the weight
of the IC itself against surface tension and not get so squashed so
flat that they cause a short-circuit to the pad next door.

when you REMOVE a BGA or FBGA IC from a circuit, that ball had
ALREADY been destroyed and obviously needs to be replaced.

with a ball of the exact same size.

that costs money and time.

l.

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[Christopher Havel]

Replying by phone, usual constraints. Sorry.

Your reply makes a lot of sense. I understand better now. That's quite an
operation...

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:45 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the problem is they need to be re-balled.

Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) --
but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire,

or a

Post by Christopher Havel
lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between
friends?

the solder balls on BGA and FBGA are specifically calculated to be a
size that will spread evenly and create a successful circuit, whilst
at the same time being of exactly the right size to support the weight
of the IC itself against surface tension and not get so squashed so
flat that they cause a short-circuit to the pad next door.
when you REMOVE a BGA or FBGA IC from a circuit, that ball had
ALREADY been destroyed and obviously needs to be replaced.
with a ball of the exact same size.
that costs money and time.
l.
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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Post by zap
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need
to do it for one person.

oh. ok. well, um... a _lot_. as in, it would be a custom board,
done by hand. 10 PCBs tend to cost about $2000 all-in, so $200 would
not be unreasonable.
basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown
costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below
1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll
consider it.

Hmm... I never realized it was that absurdly high of a price. I would do
it don't get me wrong if needed, but yeah...

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much
you would need......

i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are
actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get
hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are
available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless
you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple
products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed
with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture
anything else".

Hmm... Interesting.  That is insane.  so basically for 2gb of ram it
adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...

I am just wondering because 1gb of ram would be how much you would have
if you didn't do this. Right? Well how much would that cost you?

Don't get me wrong, I will pay 200$ extra if need be, but yeah... I am
just curious. 

Also, will the ram problem exist whenever shakti processors come out?

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown
costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below
1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll
consider it.

Hmm... I never realized it was that absurdly high of a price. I would do
it don't get me wrong if needed, but yeah...

it's down to the small quantities.

Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
Aka on an invididual basis if need be...
request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much
you would need......

i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are
actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get
hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are
available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless
you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple
products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed
with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture
anything else".

Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it
adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...

yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people.
if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means
i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.

that means ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 2gb, and ONLY an order of
2000 RAM ICs @ 1gb.

that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use,
because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.

that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM

also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit
because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....

etc.

etc.

etc.

etc.

Post by zap
I am just wondering because 1gb of ram would be how much you would have
if you didn't do this. Right? Well how much would that cost you?
Don't get me wrong, I will pay 200$ extra if need be, but yeah... I am
just curious.
Also, will the ram problem exist whenever shakti processors come out?

that's about 18-24 months out so we have no way of telling.

i was planning to use smartphone-style LPDDR3 x32 RAM ICs. i have a
design of a PCB layout i was just going to *cough* copy the pin
mapping and *cough* oh look! by a happy coincidence if i pull that
SoC out and replace it with a Shakti one it fits perfectly and doesn't
need the PCB layout changing *at all*! wow, isn't that an amazing
happy coincidence?

... mind you i have to check that it's not a 650-pin monster. i
wanted to keep the shakti m-class processor down to below 450 pins.
heck i *might* be able to get away with adjusting the tracks a
*little* bit (shorter, longer) but DDR3 layout is such a pain it's
worth going to some lengths to avoid redoing layouts.

l.

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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are
actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get
hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are
available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless
you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple
products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed
with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture
anything else".

Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it
adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...

yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people.
if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means
i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.
that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use,
because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.
that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM
also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit
because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.

This sounds very difficult, Well, you would also have to find out how
many people want 2gb of ram with a poll or something.  Pity not everyone
wants 2gb of ram that badly... ;/

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Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are
actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get
hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are
available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless
you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple
products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed
with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture
anything else".

Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it
adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...

yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people.
if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means
i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.
that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use,
because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.
that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM
also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit
because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.

This sounds very difficult,

i don't mind the "difficult" part: what i mind is that the total cost
could well be in excess even of doing 2GB RAM for all boards.

Post by zap
Well, you would also have to find out how
many people want 2gb of ram with a poll or something.

... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually
be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most
people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last
set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you
didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at
MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that
they had simply not been paying attention. at all.

so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any*
confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in
any meaningful way.

Post by zap
Pity not everyone
wants 2gb of ram that badly... ;/

meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is possible.

l.

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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually
be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most
people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last
set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you
didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at
MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that
they had simply not been paying attention. at all.

Hmm...  I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a
few.
Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest. 

Sorry all the same man.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any*
confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in
any meaningful way.

Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after
all right? and know who knows if they would after that anyways. 

I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at the
least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself. 

I never thought I would say this, but screw apple more than even microsoft.

ugh... sorry did I say microsoft? I mad malwaresoft and as for apple I
meant crapple...

If it will help, I will try to at some point send more cash your way.


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[Tor, the Marqueteur]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would
actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest
that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates.
witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people
said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i
pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically,
specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying
attention. at all.

Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed
through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not
my main interest.

Unfortunately, if there is more than one topic in an email, post, etc.,
many people seem incapable of noticing it. Even when it seems they are
being paid to read the thing. I don't know of a good solution there.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have
*any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a
poll in any meaningful way.

Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways
after all right? and know who knows if they would after that
anyways.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at
the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.

IIUC, the current state of affairs is that:
1. The design costs have run high due to issues found in the prototype
that was supposedly working after being designed by a competent designer.
2. The time required has similarly run high for the same reason.
3. In that time prices on key components have risen, as much because
of a fluke of timing as because of valid price changes.
4. Given current prices, the only known way to make everything work
with available resources is to put in lower capacity RAM ICs.

While even a dedicated update to backers might get ignored, and it's
not ideal in the first place, we obviously have some people prepared to
pay significantly more than the price increase to get the 2GB RAM.

Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much
people care about the difference in RAM?

Tor

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iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWm2UCgAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI
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On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would
actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest
that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates.
witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people
said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i
pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically,
specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying
attention. at all.

Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed
through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not
my main interest.

Unfortunately, if there is more than one topic in an email, post, etc.,
many people seem incapable of noticing it. Even when it seems they are
being paid to read the thing. I don't know of a good solution there.

it's ok: right now the project is not targetted 100% at busy
average-use-case people.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have
*any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a
poll in any meaningful way.

Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways
after all right? and know who knows if they would after that
anyways.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at
the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.

1. The design costs have run high due to issues found in the prototype
that was supposedly working after being designed by a competent designer.

ok clarification:

* 5 years ago the first version we paid USD 10,000 for them to fail
to fucking well listen. i said the OUTER dimensions were 54 x 96,
sent them the datasheet with the part from china and expected them to
read it and communicate with me about the internal PCB dimensions
needed to fit into the casework. luckily, when the PCB turned up and
was 54x96 mm in size, there were critical flaws which indicated that
the JUNIOR pcb engineer given the task had completely fucking well
failed to even run the Design Validation Checks.

* 4.5 years ago the second version was handed over to a COMPETENT
engineer... we were ONLY charged USD 5,000 for this service. i
decided that from this point onwards i would do the PCB layout myself.

* 4 years ago the HDMI connector utilised on this second revision
went END OF LIFE.

* 2 years ago the REPLACEMENT HDMI connector went END OF LIFE

* 1 year ago yet *ANOTHER* replacement HDMI connector turned out not
to be available in reasonable quantities at reasonable prices.

* 6 months ago the pressure on legacy TSSOP48 NAND (the A20 having a
BOOT ROM that only reads older NAND block sizes / speeds) became too
great and i went "fuck it, it's gone".

*NONE OF THESE THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED*. you cannot know what
you do not know that you do not know.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
2. The time required has similarly run high for the same reason.

naturally.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
3. In that time prices on key components have risen, as much because
of a fluke of timing as because of valid price changes.

this is the latest development, yes.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
4. Given current prices, the only known way to make everything work
with available resources is to put in lower capacity RAM ICs.

we don't know that yet. it is *suspected* that that is the case.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
While even a dedicated update to backers might get ignored, and it's
not ideal in the first place, we obviously have some people prepared to
pay significantly more than the price increase to get the 2GB RAM.

.... and be prepared to cover the *INCREASED* cost due to reduced
quantities but not a reduction in the fixed overheads associated with
component sourcing, supply, and PCB production *and* PCB assembly...
yes.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much
people care about the difference in RAM?

it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility for it.
i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling this stuff on
my own.

l.

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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much
people care about the difference in RAM?

it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility for it.
i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling this stuff on
my own.

Yes, understandable. Would chris from thinkpenguin have time not to be
arrogant or anything, if he has no time or has done enough already, then
maybe someone else? I don't know...? Hopefully someone trustworthy.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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[Tor, the Marqueteur]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by zap

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge
how much people care about the difference in RAM?

it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility
for it. i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling
this stuff on my own.

Yes, understandable. Would chris from thinkpenguin have time not to
be arrogant or anything, if he has no time or has done enough
already, then maybe someone else? I don't know...? Hopefully
someone trustworthy.

I suspect this means "someone following the list". Sorry, but that
won't be me. I'll contribute, I've got way too much online promotion
that I should be doing but aren't because I don't like doing that in
the first place.

For now, it sounds like it's a case of waiting to see where things are
after the latest prototypes come in.

FWIW, I agree with what Adam said. Get this one out and delivered with
what can be managed so it can be seen in the real world. Then stop
putting effort into these near-EOL components and get to the next,
better card.

Thank you for all the effort you've poured into this project, Luke.

Tor


- --
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 2:01 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
I suspect this means "someone following the list". Sorry, but that
won't be me. I'll contribute, I've got way too much online promotion
that I should be doing but aren't because I don't like doing that in
the first place.

not a problem.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
For now, it sounds like it's a case of waiting to see where things are
after the latest prototypes come in.

yes.

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
FWIW, I agree with what Adam said. Get this one out and delivered with
what can be managed so it can be seen in the real world.

yehyeh

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Then stop
putting effort into these near-EOL components and get to the next,
better card.

ngggh

Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Thank you for all the effort you've poured into this project, Luke.

appreciated tor - and everyone else who's been so encouraging.

l.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a
few.
Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest.

you're one of the small percentage that does.

Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after
all right?

a phpbb style forum would be an unmitigated disaster for this
project, as it would be an indicative sign to average end-users that
"everything is perfectly ready, everything will work 100% the moment
you get it" which is most definitely NOT the case.

I am sorry if I came across as demanding,

not at all.

I just need 2gb of ram at the
least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.

well, if you're prepared to do help out in a way that benefits more
than one person i can make sure you get one of the last remaining
2.7.4 Cards or one of the 2.7.5 pre-production prototypes when they're
available.

I never thought I would say this, but screw apple more than even microsoft.

it's not apple per se: if people world-wide weren't sleep-walking
their oblivious way into giving apple money hand-over-fist....

l.

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[zap]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after
all right?

a phpbb style forum would be an unmitigated disaster for this
project, as it would be an indicative sign to average end-users that
"everything is perfectly ready, everything will work 100% the moment
you get it" which is most definitely NOT the case.

I don't always think through what I say I guess... :(

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by zap
I am sorry if I came across as demanding,

not at all.

Post by zap
I just need 2gb of ram at the
least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.

well, if you're prepared to do help out in a way that benefits more
than one person i can make sure you get one of the last remaining
2.7.4 Cards or one of the 2.7.5 pre-production prototypes when they're
available.

What does this involve though? Just curious... Am I like beta testing
or... ? Idk... just curious. Don't get me wrong, I would like to help,
of course I would need a monitor and keyboard to use it. Right? heh...

I also would need to visit home before I could do any testing.  Because
that's where I have my monitor and keyboard... ;)

Feburary I may be able to do such a thing. Would that work for you? But
yeah, tell me what this entails.



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[Samuel Lidén Borell]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually
be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most
people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last
set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you
didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at
MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that
they had simply not been paying attention. at all.

Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2
GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM
size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is
possible.

2 GB would have been nice, but as someone who has pre-ordered the card I
agree it's more important to deliver. And I've always regarded this
project as a first step towards fully open hardware.

Regards,
Samuel

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Samuel Lidén Borell

Post by Samuel Lidén Borell
Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2
GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM
size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)

because we don't know yet - for absolute certain - that it's not
available. plus, in the next batch, there will no longer be the
pre-production costs, it will be a straight matter of "placing another
order with the factory".

Post by Samuel Lidén Borell

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is possible.

2 GB would have been nice, but as someone who has pre-ordered the card I
agree it's more important to deliver. And I've always regarded this
project as a first step towards fully open hardware.

appreciated samuel.

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[Pablo Rath]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Samuel Lidén Borell

Post by Samuel Lidén Borell
Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2
GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM
size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)

because we don't know yet - for absolute certain - that it's not
available. plus, in the next batch, there will no longer be the
pre-production costs, it will be a straight matter of "placing another
order with the factory".

Fair point. Let us hope for the best.
By the way the above discussion reminded me that the crowdsupply page still talks of "8GB NAND flash"
which is no longer used.

kind regards
Pablo

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[Adam Van Ymeren]

While 2gb ram would be great, I am wiling to accept compromise. With
hope/thinking that i guess finishing first card, means next-gen cpu
card
could get more focus after the first one is out :D (pending sponsoring
i
assume). Look forward to lots of ram for that one instead heh :)

I think getting to the next gen card is really important. The specifics of this card are really not a big deal in my opinion. It's already a bit outdated, and gets more so with each delay.

But that's fine. The big opportunity here is once this card and associated housings is actually in people's hands, then they can experience the upgrade process with the next card comes out.

That's the whole point of EOMA68 in the first place. To modularize your computing so upgrades are cheaper, easier and less wasteful.

I think people are getting too caught up on how to make the a20 the perfect card, but that misses the big picture. This isn't a one off single board computer, it's a bootstrap of an ecosystem. And rather than try to make the first board perfect, it's more important to just get the first board done and move on to the second and third boards to really get the ecosystem going.

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours
time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the
2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back
again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and
the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get
them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.

l.

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[Adam Van Ymeren]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours
time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the
2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back
again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and
the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get
them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
l.
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Great! You're doing great work Luke, keep it up!

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[zap]

Post by Adam Van Ymeren

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours
time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the
2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back
again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and
the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get
them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
l.
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Great! You're doing great work Luke, keep it up!

I have the same thoughts, Thank you Luke. Keep it up indeed!

Post by Adam Van Ymeren
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[Richard Wilbur]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours
time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the
2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back
again to Taiwan.

Best wishes with all the travel and meetings.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and
the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get
them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.

Are there enough 2.7.4 cards and microdesktop housings that I could buy one of each to use for test development and software integration/porting?

I know we reworked the HDMI layout and changed the connector. You also changed a lot of the power supply decoupling capacitors. What other differences were there between 2.7.4 and 2.7.5?
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[Richard Wilbur]

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Richard Wilbur
Are there enough 2.7.4 cards and microdesktop housings that I could buy one of each to use for test development and software integration/porting?

So I'd be interested in:
Libre Tea Card (v2.7.4), $65 on CrowdSupply (prototypes typically more expensive, please let me know how much)
Microdesktop Housing, $55 on CrowdSupply
PCMCIA/EOMA68 Breakout Board, $20 on CrowdSupply

USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone Operation, $15 on CrowdSupply


Should I (pre-?)order them on CrowdSupply? What arrangements will work (shipping, et cetera)? I realize some of these may not be currently available.
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