[Arm-netbook] First laptop dock for Intel's card announced

[Lauri Kasanen]

Hi,

First laptop dock for Intel's copy:
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42685-nexdock-transforms-intel-compute-card-into-14-inch-notebook

14", switchable ports.

- Lauri

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Lauri Kasanen
Hi,
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42685-nexdock-transforms-intel-compute-card-into-14-inch-notebook

oo that looks familiar! :)

l.

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[Lyberta]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Lauri Kasanen
Hi,
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42685-nexdock-transforms-intel-compute-card-into-14-inch-notebook

oo that looks familiar! :)
l.

If it's reasonably cheaper than EOMA68 variant, then we have a problem.

[ryan]

if I remember correctly, the first EOMA68 cards will be $35 at volume,
and Intel is advertising Skylake and Kabylake CPUs in their Compute
Cards, so its clearly x86. Since they're targeting the mainstream will
inevitably make their cards run Winodws. To make a $35 computer run
desktop windows, you're going to have a bad time. They simply can't push
the 4GB+ of RAM and 64GB+ of storage necessary to run Windows into a $35
card. $50? maybe? probably?


Now, what about the laptop chassis? EOMA68 currently has a $500 chassis
available. I haven't seen any volume pricing or other options for
reducing the price down to a level more managable for a "normie" who's
used to $200-300 throwaway laptops. $500 for an "empty shell" is really
easy for a behomoth like Intel to beat. Heck, they could do a
fully-fledged laptop casing and include a Windows-capable compute card
for less than that because they have more money to play with, and could
even sell at a loss to build marketshare.


So we can easily beat Intel on pricing for the computer cards, but on
the docks? that's where we've got issues. It's hard to convince
"normies" that Intel's ME is a problem, especially if they're already
heavily invested in Windows and x86. For many of the people we're
pitching our platform to, we're not only getting them to switch to
Linux, we're also getting them to switch CPU architectures, and pay more
for the hardware, too.


We're basically telling the "normies" that "yeah, we're better, but you
can't run Windows, you can't run any of the games you currently play,
and you have to pay more" which is really hard to sell.


-R

Post by Lyberta

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Lauri Kasanen
Hi,
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42685-nexdock-transforms-intel-compute-card-into-14-inch-notebook

oo that looks familiar! :)
l.

If it's reasonably cheaper than EOMA68 variant, then we have a problem.
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[Julie Marchant]

Post by ryan
Now, what about the laptop chassis? EOMA68 currently has a $500 chassis
available. I haven't seen any volume pricing or other options for
reducing the price down to a level more managable for a "normie" who's
used to $200-300 throwaway laptops. $500 for an "empty shell" is really
easy for a behomoth like Intel to beat. Heck, they could do a
fully-fledged laptop casing and include a Windows-capable compute card
for less than that because they have more money to play with, and could
even sell at a loss to build marketshare.

I think one of the videos had Luke saying that it would probably be
~$300 at mass volume.

In any case, the current EOMA68 laptop has something else you're leaving
out: the fact that it is built of several easily obtainable parts, with
everything else 3-D printed. Meaning it's *repairable*. The laptop
mentioned for Intel compute cards is just a standard laptop case.

Also, I would like to point out that the laptop is *not* made by Intel.
It's made by a small company that made a similar product in the past
(utilizing things like smartphones) through IndieGoGo. I seriously doubt
Intel will directly subsidize them, so they won't be able to sell their
laptop chassis at a loss. Unless there's some kind of license fee that
needs to be paid out, Intel probably isn't even aware of the project.

What's it going to cost, anyway? I don't see any indication of what it's
going to cost, or any concrete information, really. It could be more
expensive than the EOMA68 15" laptop, for all we know.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by ryan
Now, what about the laptop chassis? EOMA68 currently has a $500 chassis
available.

the BOM's $160 for a run of only 500. the BOM for 10k or 100k? peanuts.

l.

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[Allan Mwenda]

Other sites running the news
http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/1/19/14329102/nexdock-intel-compute-card-modular-computer-concept
http://www.pcmag.com/news/351107/new-nexdock-uses-intel-compute-card-to-become-a-laptop

In reply to ryan's concerns, I feel the Intel card will fail for the very
reasons the EOMA68 cards will succeed. The Intel card is not open, and
Intel will of course try and milk money out of the platform. OEMs DON'T
want users saving the environment and spending years with one shell. Quite
the opposite, they want you coming back year after year for the new model.
So then what do we have? We have a closed card, with no OEM love. Intel
won't make a successor card. On the other hand, we have the EOMA68, which
already has successor cards potentiated (rockchip,samsung,all that good
stuff luke is testing in china) and as an open standard anyone can take up,
there's actually a business in just tracking down processors to throw into
cards (And in fact if you can Luke, point this out to Rockchip when you
meet them) As you said, people will try and put Windows on the Intel card,
with all the drama swapping resolutions etc will bring with windows drivers
being the shitfest they are, but because the EOMA is so open, one can
trivially do all this swapping, AND TROUBLESHOOT ANY CRASHES LITERALLY WITH
A INTERNET SEARCH OR THE COMMUNITY, unlike waiting on Microsoft.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by ryan
Now, what about the laptop chassis? EOMA68 currently has a $500 chassis
available.

the BOM's $160 for a run of only 500. the BOM for 10k or 100k? peanuts.
l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

shitfest they are, but because the EOMA is so open, one can trivially do all
this swapping, AND TROUBLESHOOT ANY CRASHES LITERALLY WITH A INTERNET SEARCH
OR THE COMMUNITY, unlike waiting on Microsoft.

one nice thing, people will start putting dynamic drivers into linux
to support screen-size swapping and so on.

which means it will be easy to adapt to EOMA68... :)

l.

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[Allan Mwenda]

You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY decide they thought of this first

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

shitfest they are, but because the EOMA is so open, one can trivially

do all

this swapping, AND TROUBLESHOOT ANY CRASHES LITERALLY WITH A INTERNET

SEARCH

OR THE COMMUNITY, unlike waiting on Microsoft.

one nice thing, people will start putting dynamic drivers into linux
to support screen-size swapping and so on.
which means it will be easy to adapt to EOMA68... :)
l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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Post by Allan Mwenda
You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY
decide they thought of this first

or... i should publish all of them via the mailing list, wiki, irc
channel with its independently publicly-recorded logs (in two separate
locations), as well as maintain a git repository which records the
chronological order (to the second) of all changes made to the
website, which will be corroborated by archive.org (an independent
organisation), and maintain a standard on an independent website
(elinux.org) over which i have no direct control in its
administration, thus confirming in at least a dozen different ways,
witnessed by several hundred other people, that there exists prior
art, through which i can simply tell anyone trying to claim that they
own any patents related to *any* of the EOMA68 modular designs, that
they can go fuck themselves. how about that? ;)

l.

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[Adam Van Ymeren]

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Allan Mwenda
You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY
decide they thought of this first

or... i should publish all of them via the mailing list, wiki, irc
channel with its independently publicly-recorded logs (in two separate
locations), as well as maintain a git repository which records the
chronological order (to the second) of all changes made to the
website, which will be corroborated by archive.org (an independent
organisation), and maintain a standard on an independent website
(elinux.org) over which i have no direct control in its
administration, thus confirming in at least a dozen different ways,
witnessed by several hundred other people, that there exists prior
art, through which i can simply tell anyone trying to claim that they
own any patents related to *any* of the EOMA68 modular designs, that
they can go fuck themselves. how about that? ;)

I like it :)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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[Peter Carlson]

yea that would work too.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Allan Mwenda
You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY
decide they thought of this first

or... i should publish all of them via the mailing list, wiki, irc
channel with its independently publicly-recorded logs (in two separate
locations), as well as maintain a git repository which records the
chronological order (to the second) of all changes made to the
website, which will be corroborated by archive.org (an independent
organisation), and maintain a standard on an independent website
(elinux.org) over which i have no direct control in its
administration, thus confirming in at least a dozen different ways,
witnessed by several hundred other people, that there exists prior
art, through which i can simply tell anyone trying to claim that they
own any patents related to *any* of the EOMA68 modular designs, that
they can go fuck themselves. how about that? ;)
l.
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[Julie Marchant]

Post by Allan Mwenda
You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY
decide they thought of this first

Intel doesn't have grounds to start patenting this design idea now.

Though I do wonder, is there a clear case of prior art for this kind of
thing that would invalidate any possible patents? Something technically
designed as a fully functioning computer that plugs into the thing that
gives it all its interfaces? If there is, it would probably be good to
know about it. The last thing we would want is a patent troll coming
along demanding royalties for some obscure patent. :)

[Julie Marchant]

Post by Julie Marchant
Though I do wonder, is there a clear case of prior art for this kind of
thing that would invalidate any possible patents? Something technically
designed as a fully functioning computer that plugs into the thing that
gives it all its interfaces? If there is, it would probably be good to
know about it. The last thing we would want is a patent troll coming
along demanding royalties for some obscure patent. :)

Actually, I think I've got one: the Super Game Boy. That was actually a
fully-functioning computer with no inputs or outputs of its own; it
plugged into a SNES to get all its inputs and outputs. So really, you
could say that it was one of the earlier computer cards, while the SNES
was its housing.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Julie Marchant

Post by Allan Mwenda
You should patent all the things before Intel just i n case they REALLY
decide they thought of this first

Intel doesn't have grounds to start patenting this design idea now.
Though I do wonder, is there a clear case of prior art for this kind of
thing that would invalidate any possible patents? Something technically
designed as a fully functioning computer that plugs into the thing that
gives it all its interfaces?

there's an expired patent where someone dual-purposed PCMCIA. the
drawing even has an LCD built-in to the Card. basically the patent
was on detection of whether it was plugged into a PCMCIA socket (or
not), if yes, it behaved as a PCMCIA Card, if no, it behaved as a
modular computer.

there's a patent from 18+ months ago by microsoft (saw it on
slashdot) for a totally-modular-computer-thing...

then there's also the "Blade" Server concept, which has been around forever...

... basically it's not sufficiently innovative to warrant actually
bothering to patent. anybody that tries is asking to have their
patent referred for invalidation.

l.

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[Stefan Monnier]

Post by Julie Marchant
Though I do wonder, is there a clear case of prior art for this kind of
thing that would invalidate any possible patents? Something technically
designed as a fully functioning computer that plugs into the thing that
gives it all its interfaces? If there is, it would probably be good to
know about it. The last thing we would want is a patent troll coming
along demanding royalties for some obscure patent. :)

AFAIK the recommendation in this matter is: better not know, since
knowingly infringing is a more serious offense and
unknowingly infringing.


Stefan


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[Julie Marchant]

Post by Stefan Monnier
AFAIK the recommendation in this matter is: better not know, since
knowingly infringing is a more serious offense and
unknowingly infringing.

That's for *current* patents, not examples of prior art that would
invalidate such patents.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Lyberta

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Lauri Kasanen
Hi,
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/mobile/42685-nexdock-transforms-intel-compute-card-into-14-inch-notebook

oo that looks familiar! :)
l.

If it's reasonably cheaper than EOMA68 variant, then we have a problem.

it would appear that way, initially, but remember that EOMA68 takes
the long view... and expects users to be happy enough with being *long
term* financially responsible and saving themselves money.

additionally, there is the advantage that you can upgrade or add on
as additional funds become available.

but, more than that, i'm keenly aware - have been for years - that
intel simply cannot deliver low-end, low-cost competitive x86
processors.... period. it's *literally* impossible for them to do so.
as in, it's *literally* an engineering impossibility thanks to the
compactness of the x86 instruction set. i've written about this at
some length, a number of times.

so they are making up for this by subsidising the market THREE times.
to the OEMs, to the wholesalers, AND TO THE USERS.

intel are PAYING the OEMs to make designs based around their processors

intel are PAYING the wholesalers to stock products based around their
processors

intel are providing VOUCHERS to end-users who buy the products.

at some point various monopolies and mergers commissions around the
world are going to start noticing that and taking an interest, at
which point intel will be forced to put the prices back up to their
*real* values, which are far in excess of the alternative offerings
based around ARM and MIPS.

l.

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