[Arm-netbook] Laptop idea

[Vincent B.]

Hi,

What about start from a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop, that usually comes with the full
user guide and parts available, design a custom PCB to host the EOMA-68 card and
be compatible with the rest of the Thinkpad hardware (screen, keyboard, etc
).
This would produce an EOMA based laptop, it is even maybe possible to reuse
PCMCIA ports from the Thinkpad (mine has two such slots).

I would be very interested because I like Thinkpads, but I'd like a system that
consume much less power, and this just doesn't exist on the market yet.

Cheers,

Vincent

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Vincent B.
Hi,
What about start from a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop, that usually comes with the full
user guide and parts available, design a custom PCB to host the EOMA-68 card and
be compatible with the rest of the Thinkpad hardware (screen, keyboard, etc
).
This would produce an EOMA based laptop, it is even maybe possible to reuse
PCMCIA ports from the Thinkpad (mine has two such slots).
I would be very interested because I like Thinkpads, but I'd like a system that
consume much less power, and this just doesn't exist on the market yet.

yeah exactly. laptops we have to get to later, once the other
product campaigns are underway and sales are in. i'll explain more
later. netbook (10 to 11in 1280x800 LCD) no problem, laptop (1400x900
or above), requires some cash.

l.

[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
netbook (10 to 11in 1280x800 LCD) no problem, laptop (1400x900
or above), requires some cash.

Laptop shipments are sequentially down year on year
and vertical definitions such as x800 or x900
and just yuk. Even a 7" padphone now sports
IPS 1920x1200 resolution costing retail USD200.
Getting one of those 7" screens into a laptop would be neat
as it would outdo most commercial offerings
with a better screen. For $180 the 9.3"
tablets with 2048*1536 screens available
(e.g. Onda V975M). Getting one of those into 'Ubuntu laptop'
would steal the show.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
netbook (10 to 11in 1280x800 LCD) no problem, laptop (1400x900
or above), requires some cash.

Laptop shipments are sequentially down year on year
and vertical definitions such as x800 or x900
and just yuk. Even a 7" padphone now sports
IPS 1920x1200 resolution costing retail USD200.
Getting one of those 7" screens into a laptop would be neat
as it would outdo most commercial offerings
with a better screen. For $180 the 9.3"
tablets with 2048*1536 screens available
(e.g. Onda V975M). Getting one of those into 'Ubuntu laptop'
would steal the show.

niiice. however (cross-over posting) i need to redo the metal
casework down to 3.3mm to get back up to 1920x1080, that will require
re-tooling costs, a minor redesign and sourcing of a matching
Mid-Mount Micro-HDMI Type D connector. the part we found previously
(reverse mid-mount from Amphenol) went end-of-life. they still have
the tooling: they can do another run if there is an order of 1 million
units or above. the only other part found so far is from Molex and
it's $1.30 instead of $0.30.

so quite a bit of work needed so i am reserving that for the next few
months once sales are in.

remember joe, unlike even your own business there is no income yet, i
cannot just drop $10,000 to $20,000 into tooling so unless someone
comes up with that money things have to be done in a bootstrap
sequence.

l.

[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
remember joe, unlike even your own business there is no income yet, i
cannot just drop $10,000 to $20,000 into tooling so unless someone
comes up with that money things have to be done in a bootstrap
sequence.

I fully understand, and I would donate where I can.
(Some infrastructure goodies coming your way soon,
and when I get enough resources, some EOMAs.)

Have you thought about 3D printer?
I bought 3 of these
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193
(£409 + VAT) and they can make all the difference getting the plastic
side going. Just add openscad and some good old rasp or a file :)

Once you release 3D printable parametric laptop case, the project takes
on a whole new dimension.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
remember joe, unlike even your own business there is no income yet, i
cannot just drop $10,000 to $20,000 into tooling so unless someone
comes up with that money things have to be done in a bootstrap
sequence.

I fully understand, and I would donate where I can.
(Some infrastructure goodies coming your way soon,
and when I get enough resources, some EOMAs.)
Have you thought about 3D printer?

up until i was working here and earning good money... mmmm... no.

Post by joem
I bought 3 of these
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193
(£409 + VAT) and they can make all the difference getting the plastic
side going. Just add openscad and some good old rasp or a file :)

... you know what? what the hell, i'm gonna get one :)

[Philip Hands]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
remember joe, unlike even your own business there is no income yet, i
cannot just drop $10,000 to $20,000 into tooling so unless someone
comes up with that money things have to be done in a bootstrap
sequence.

I fully understand, and I would donate where I can.
(Some infrastructure goodies coming your way soon,
and when I get enough resources, some EOMAs.)
Have you thought about 3D printer?

up until i was working here and earning good money... mmmm... no.

Post by joem
I bought 3 of these
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193
(£409 + VAT) and they can make all the difference getting the plastic
side going. Just add openscad and some good old rasp or a file :)

... you know what? what the hell, i'm gonna get one :)

You might want to look at:

http://hydraraptor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/mendel90-updates.html

a few more quid, but really nicely designed by someone who knows what
he's on about, judging from things like this:

http://hydraraptor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/stepstuck.html

(most of the rest of the reprap folk are busy gluing heatsinks onto the
insulated tops of the driver chips in the misguided belief that that
might fix their problems, so it's very refreshing to see someone
who can actually work out the underlying causes of problems.

Not that I know anything (good or bad) about the K8200. A very quick
duckduckgo turned up this though:

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thingiverse.com%2Fthing%3A317411

which seems to suggest that it's not that accurate out of the box. The
"rough around the edges" comment in this:

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/workshop/productnews/velleman-3d-printer-build-2.html

may be significant too, although I'd say that probably applies to all
reprap style printers -- they all seem to be open-loop, with end-stops
only on one end of each axis, so ... well that's another thing that
nophead has addressed:

http://hydraraptor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/only-way-is-up.html

If you don't mind rough-around-the-edges, then I have a mendel in bits
in the cellar that I can flog you :-)

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [[phone]] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY
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[joem]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by joem
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193
(£409 + VAT) and they can make all the difference getting the plastic
side going. Just add openscad and some good old rasp or a file :)

... you know what? what the hell, i'm gonna get one :)

Well done sir!

Need any help, let me know.

The software in particular, running on Linux requires mono
recompiled to get the Arduino to work at some funny baud.

Head assembly must not leak - may need to put in copper washer
because of a design flaw in sealing the head - if it does leak,
need a new head!!

The output torque of the motor needs to be adjusted upwards
to the limit if the movement is not to jam intermittently.

Also apply a drop or two of oil every 2nd or 3rd attempt on to the
slider rails.

Recommend placing a piece of glass over the heated bed and clip it on
like the guy has it in this picture
http://hydraraptor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/mendel90-updates.html
- get from Pound shop an A4 picture frame and cut its glass to size
and run it 3 degrees hotter than recommended for the bare PCB
heater.

The printer shakes a lot when running fast.
Need a sturdy table.

Need an IP cam trained on it to spot any problems remotely.

Other than that, no sweat - just pure fun and fairly accurate prints.

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

Post by joem

Post by joem
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193

The software in particular, running on Linux requires mono
recompiled to get the Arduino to work at some funny baud.

You can use any rep-rap compatibile program to manage that printer,
there is no need to use RepetierHost (which btw is no
longer free software) under recompiled mono.

Personally I've been using mostly OctoPrint_ which is free software
(not yet in Debian, but they are working on it), in python
and just works both on x86 and arm.

.. _OctoPrint: http://octoprint.org/

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Elena ``of Valhalla''

Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''

Post by joem
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193

Personally I've been using mostly OctoPrint_ which is free software
(not yet in Debian, but they are working on it), in python
and just works both on x86 and arm.
.. _OctoPrint: http://octoprint.org/

elena, joe, thank you for this.

[Vincent B.]

Post by joem
I fully understand, and I would donate where I can.
(Some infrastructure goodies coming your way soon,
and when I get enough resources, some EOMAs.)
Have you thought about 3D printer?
I bought 3 of these
http://cpc.farnell.com/velleman-kit/k8200/3d-printer-k8200/dp/HK01193
(£409 + VAT) and they can make all the difference getting the plastic
side going. Just add openscad and some good old rasp or a file :)
Once you release 3D printable parametric laptop case, the project takes
on a whole new dimension.

The idea is that I wanted an industry-grade laptop ready to use, not a
prototype. Furthermore it seemed to me easier to start from an existing case
design and make a custom PCB for it rather than doing everything from scratch.
But I might be wrong.

Cheers,
Vincent

[joem]

Post by Vincent B.
The idea is that I wanted an industry-grade laptop ready to use

In manufacturing, possession is nine tenths of the law
even if its the working prototype.

Funds and interested parties will connect with you
and if you are good enough to harvest the interest, $$$!!

[Wookey]

Post by Vincent B.
Hi,
What about start from a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop,
I would be very interested because I like Thinkpads, but I'd like a system that
consume much less power, and this just doesn't exist on the market yet.

You are by no means the first person to think of this. Hardware people
in Cambridge are looking at actually doing this (with an arm64 chip
such as AMD's). The usual problem is finding enough time and money,
but there are a good number of developers out there who want a
half-decent arm laptop. Obviously arm64+32G RAM+offchip video would be
aiming quite a lot higher (and more expensive) than the EOMA concept
(32bit arm, 2G RAM, one nice low-power SOC). Both have their place -
the former may not turn out to be particularly low-power...

Wookey

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Wookey

Post by Vincent B.
Hi,
What about start from a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop,
I would be very interested because I like Thinkpads, but I'd like a system that
consume much less power, and this just doesn't exist on the market yet.

You are by no means the first person to think of this. Hardware people
in Cambridge are looking at actually doing this (with an arm64 chip
such as AMD's). The usual problem is finding enough time and money,
but there are a good number of developers out there who want a
half-decent arm laptop.

*jumps up and down excitedly* that's why this list was started!! :)

Post by Wookey
Obviously arm64+32G RAM+offchip video would be
aiming quite a lot higher (and more expensive) than the EOMA concept
(32bit arm, 2G RAM, one nice low-power SOC).

ahh remember that EOMA68 isn't just about one SoC, or even about SoCs
per se [remember the pass-through card, and the FPGA card?]. the only
reason i didn't yet do an Intel CPU Card yet is because their current
tablet SoC in 22nm is juuust outside of the comfortable power budget,
unfortunately.

so... wookey, if you happen to know of someone who is sampling arm64
SoCs, i'd be veeery interested to speak with them.

Post by Wookey
Both have their place -
the former may not turn out to be particularly low-power...

yeahhh there are ways around that, such as only using one 32-bit DDR3
rail instead of two, and monitoring temperature carefully. one 32-bit
DDR3 interface @ 800mhz uses i think it's around 350mA, it's when you
get 2x 1666mhz 32-bit interfaces that you go over the comfortable
EOMA68 power budget... just for the _memory_!!!

offchip video is where it gets... challenging (read: out of the
question). there simply aren't any low-power GPUs out there - even if
you use the 2D Volari Z11 (the one that's used in the OpenRD Ultimate)
it's around 2 watts which is madness.

l.

[Miguel Garcia]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so... wookey, if you happen to know of someone who is sampling arm64
SoCs, i'd be veeery interested to speak with them.

Today, I think there is no ARM64 (except Apple).

The closest is the 64-bit Tegra K1 (late 2014).

Maybe you can look at the 32-bit Tegra K1. Now available (Shield
Tablet) and is pin-compatible with the 64-bit Tegra K1.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Post by Wookey

Post by Vincent B.
Hi,
What about start from a Lenovo Thinkpad laptop,
I would be very interested because I like Thinkpads, but I'd like a system that
consume much less power, and this just doesn't exist on the market yet.

You are by no means the first person to think of this. Hardware people
in Cambridge are looking at actually doing this (with an arm64 chip
such as AMD's). The usual problem is finding enough time and money,
but there are a good number of developers out there who want a
half-decent arm laptop. Obviously arm64+32G RAM+offchip video would be
aiming quite a lot higher (and more expensive) than the EOMA concept
(32bit arm, 2G RAM, one nice low-power SOC). Both have their place -
the former may not turn out to be particularly low-power...
Wookey
--

I'll buy a 64 bit ARM laptop tomorrow if it will help me do some
of the stuff I want to do with higher data rate "stuff" and GNURadio :)

Good luck to whoever's planning this :)

[Oh, and give my love to Debconf: hope to catch up on the video of the
ARM sessions]

AndyC

Post by Wookey
Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater

Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
I'll buy a 64 bit ARM laptop tomorrow if it will help me do some
of the stuff I want to do with higher data rate "stuff" and GNURadio :)

you've seen the parallela and the zynq zc70xx plans, a gnuradio port
to the parallela, right?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater

Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
I'll buy a 64 bit ARM laptop tomorrow if it will help me do some
of the stuff I want to do with higher data rate "stuff" and GNURadio :)

you've seen the parallela and the zynq zc70xx plans, a gnuradio port
to the parallela, right?

Yes, I have a Parallella - Kickstarter prototype with small heatsink :(
and I've seen what's been done thus far with GNURadio porting.

It looks as if you can get "stock" GNURadio to run on the ARM cores
and will then need to do quite a bit of programming on the Epiphany cores
to get any use out of them. It looks almost as hard as building a Linux
distribution from scratch :(

A HackRF is coming - see, I had a lot of money and could wait a long time
for Kickstarter projects to come through - but GNURadio looks to need a
large amount of grunt for processing and is a very rapidly moving target
which makes it a lot harder to get to grips with.

It may be that I'm just out of my depth - but it does appear that most
ARM SoC are underpowered for this - even something like the BBB or the
Cubietruck. Any and all contradiction very gratefully received, as ever.

All the very best,


AndyC

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater

Post by Andrew M.A. Cater

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater

Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
I'll buy a 64 bit ARM laptop tomorrow if it will help me do some
of the stuff I want to do with higher data rate "stuff" and GNURadio :)

you've seen the parallela and the zynq zc70xx plans, a gnuradio port
to the parallela, right?

Yes, I have a Parallella - Kickstarter prototype with small heatsink :(
and I've seen what's been done thus far with GNURadio porting.
It looks as if you can get "stock" GNURadio to run on the ARM cores
and will then need to do quite a bit of programming on the Epiphany cores
to get any use out of them.

yes that's the project that i saw announced, so, at some point, you
won't have to do the hard work yourself :)

l.