[Arm-netbook] 2 ideas

[Wolfgang Romey (hier)]

Hello Luke,

two ideas:

Have you ever thought aboat contacting Fairphone? They have similar goals.
Maybe you could write an guest-article on their blog. - It would be great, if
you could partner with them in the future for producing the Card with their
fair substances and fairer working conditions.

Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?

Wolfgang
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On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Wolfgang Romey (hier)

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
Hello Luke,
Have you ever thought aboat contacting Fairphone?

yeahhh... i've been in touch with them in the past (when i was in
holland). even after the hard lessons of the GPL-violating Mediatek
"abandonware" they still haven't really got the message, bless 'em,
having gone with a spyware-riding Qualcomm chipset for the second
version.

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
They have similar goals.
Maybe you could write an guest-article on their blog. - It would be great, if
you could partner with them in the future for producing the Card with their
fair substances and fairer working conditions.

have you heard the phrase, "sometimes you just gotta let the
train-wreck happen"? Fairphone's team are trying hard: their hearts
are in the right place, but they have tackled something that has
ethical implications which can only be fully understood if you have an
*EXTREME* technical background and knowledge-set.

the Fairphone team unfortunately do *NOT* yet have the level of
technical knowledge required to understand that their ethical goals
simply CANNOT be met without that full technical knowledge and
background.

i've tried... several people have also independently tried... they're
"Not Getting The Message"... so we just have to "let the train-wreck
happen".

give it another 2 years: when their second phone also turns into a
privacy and land-fill train-wreck due to qualcomm "abandonware"
policies, security vulnerabilities and privacy violations from the
qualcomm chipset, causing people to throw ANOTHER $EUR 500 phone into
landfill in disgust, **THEN** they will be ready to listen.

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?

i don't see why not - what is it?

l.

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[Wolfgang Romey]

Hello Luke,

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?

i don't see why not - what is it?

Oh, I am surprized. I thought you would know everything :-)

Nextcloud is the fork of owncloud, which allows you to setup your private
cloud with calendar, contacts and so on and for example allows you to federate
with other clouds.


Wolfgang
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[Wolfgang Romey]

Hello Luke,

I am a bit surprized about your harsh reaction, but do not want to open a
discussion about fairphone.

You are right, that they started with a task, which is gigantic, but they
learned and hopefully will learn more. Some aspects which are for ME
important:

- they will offering an update of the os for the fairphone I. I has been hard
work as they made mistakes in the beginning, but they succeeded. For my two
years old LG-D855 there is no update in sight.

- they offer a google-free android for the fairphone II and it will be possible
to install other OSs like Sailfish or Ubuntu mobil. They try to built a
community

- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their modular
construction.

- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.

Do you know any other smartphone, which is a better choicel than the
Fairphone?


Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Romey
Krokusstraße 37
47249 Duisburg

geraspora: https://pod.geraspora.de/people/9002a1416a4e4a9d
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tox: ***@toxme.se

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
Hello Luke,
I am a bit surprized about your harsh reaction, but do not want to open a
discussion about fairphone.

it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own
forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they
*COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an
"abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.

.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre
community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which
will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we
hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
You are right, that they started with a task, which is gigantic, but they
learned and hopefully will learn more. Some aspects which are for ME
- they will offering an update of the os for the fairphone I. I has been hard
work as they made mistakes in the beginning, but they succeeded. For my two
years old LG-D855 there is no update in sight.

why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source
so that people can do the updates themselves?

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
- they offer a google-free android for the fairphone II and it will be possible
to install other OSs like Sailfish or Ubuntu mobil. They try to built a
community

interesting. so it looks like they're learning from the really hard
lesson of the Fairphone 1. that's really good.

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their modular
construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.

fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in
the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals
and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...

Post by Wolfgang Romey (hier)
Do you know any other smartphone, which is a better choicel than the
Fairphone?

*sigh* because of the spying that goes on through the modems, not a
single one of the smartphones can be considered "a better choice". i
have a stricter set of ethical criteria than they do, and will not
*use* a smartphone until i have full control over the hardware. i
would rather do without one.

i used to own *9* smartphones - i was involved in the xanadux.sf.net
project behind xda-developers before it became really popular (due to
android). look up the irc logs on #htc-linux dating back to 2003.

i've just set up a page
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

l.

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[Wolfgang Romey]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own
forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they
*COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an
"abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.

Of course, they made that mistake, but now they are delivering security-
updates for the fairphone I.

https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4-4-coming-soon/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre
community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which
will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we
hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.

Yes. But they do care about landfill:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors-of-the-mobile-industry/

Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?

This is another example:

https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/22/from-the-factory-to-you-packaging-the-fairphone-2/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source
so that people can do the updates themselves?

You are of course right, but they learned for the Fairphone II:

https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/28/releasing-the-fairphone-2-open-operating-system/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their
modular construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.

fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in
the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals
and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...

You too are not big enough to deal with the cartells, But as far as I
understand it, there is nut much need to deal with them at this point. But, if
you wanted to be shure, that the EOMA68-Card only used conflict free materials
and was produced under acceptable conditions, which is an ethical aspect too,
you you would have to go a long way. I think, Fairphone did not choose the
right starting point. Your's seems to me a lot better.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

It would be great, if this could be come to life too.

Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Romey
Krokusstraße 37
47249 Duisburg

geraspora: https://pod.geraspora.de/people/9002a1416a4e4a9d
loadaverage: https://loadaverage.org/hier
tox: ***@toxme.se

Bitte Anhänge nur in freien Formaten.
Die Nachricht ist signiert, der öffentliche Schlüssel wird auf Anfrage
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own
forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they
*COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an
"abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.

Of course, they made that mistake, but now they are delivering security-
updates for the fairphone I.
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4-4-coming-soon/

goood.... but are they providing the full source code? if not,
they're actually operating as a *Criminal Cartel* - as an Organised
Crime Syndicate! and it's illegal to fund organised crime. this is
not a joke.

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre
community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which
will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we
hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.

https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors-of-the-mobile-industry/
Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?

there's several that indirectly reduce e-waste, they're listed on the
phonebloks.com web site. irony is that there's no common standard
between any of them to share components.... whoops...

Post by Wolfgang Romey
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/22/from-the-factory-to-you-packaging-the-fairphone-2/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source
so that people can do the updates themselves?

https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/28/releasing-the-fairphone-2-open-operating-system/

hooray!

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their
modular construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.

fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in
the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals
and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...

You too are not big enough to deal with the cartells,

i'm dealing with that by picking LCDs that are so hugely
mass-produced (and also not using MIPI) that they *have* to be "open".

Post by Wolfgang Romey
But as far as I
understand it, there is nut much need to deal with them at this point. But, if
you wanted to be shure, that the EOMA68-Card only used conflict free materials
and was produced under acceptable conditions, which is an ethical aspect too,
you you would have to go a long way. I think, Fairphone did not choose the
right starting point. Your's seems to me a lot better.

*sigh* i wish i had their marketing expertise though.

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

It would be great, if this could be come to life too.

working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.

Post by Wolfgang Romey
Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Romey
Krokusstraße 37
47249 Duisburg
geraspora: https://pod.geraspora.de/people/9002a1416a4e4a9d
loadaverage: https://loadaverage.org/hier
Bitte Anhänge nur in freien Formaten.
Die Nachricht ist signiert, der öffentliche Schlüssel wird auf Anfrage
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

It would be great, if this could be come to life too.

working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.

btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard
kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found
out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths
in these modems.

i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of
hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that
i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the
question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to
arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the
end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".

we also know that this feature is something that Telit provide and
actively advertise as part of their Industrial and Automotive modem
series, but with Telit's range that is something that is definitely
desirable (to be able to fix any software bugs in a modem which could
be embedded absolutely in the remotest or most hostile and
inaccessible environments, used for Telemetry data gathering).

the accidental example however was *NOT* an industrial 3G modem - it
was an end-user "mobile phone" 3G modem that is commonly-used in
smartphones and tablets.

so this is not a theoretical exercise: modem manufacturers are forced
to provide back-door paths for spying purposes without end-user's
knowledge, hence the need for open transparent hardware and hard
kill-switches on all and any components that can't be audited.

l.


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[Christopher Havel]

Almost all non-iPhone phones come with what I would argue as a pretty
effective such 'kill switch' device -- a removable battery.

Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean,
I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't
really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being
afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a
very good security policy.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Christopher Havel

Post by Christopher Havel
Almost all non-iPhone phones come with what I would argue as a pretty
effective such 'kill switch' device -- a removable battery.

that doesn't allow you to write messages or prepare responses or
access the calendar or anything else.

the scenario that such a phone covers is one that was covered by Dr
Stallman at Hope2016: i attended his talk. he explained that by
having a hard kill-switch on the radio part of the phone you can
prepare some communications using the device such that when *you* are
ready to move to a location where *you* feel comfortable sending and
receiving a pre-arranged batch of messages and calls, you may do so.

this covers the scenario where you know from experience that there is
a high probability that your activities could result in death or
imprisonment for yourself or others. under such circumstances you
want to ABSOLUTELY minimise the time spent online. the actual sending
and receiving may only take seconds or minutes - you may not feel
comfortable being in the open even amongst a large crowd of people
doing that. but if you have to SIT THERE writing the communications,
the chances of being arrested or murdered go up with every second
spent in one place.

under such persecuted circumstances where terrorists are after you
(we don't call them "government authorities" - we call them by what
they are: individuals operating outside of all known ethical and
humanitarian frameworks, whose actions are DESIGNED to terrorise
others), a device on which you could write messages with the radio
switched off could actually save your life.

Post by Christopher Havel
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean,
I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't
really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being afraid
all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a very good
security policy.

yeahh... i've heard this argument before. then when mafia
organisations start to work out how to use the same backdoors, or the
police start to get bribes from criminals to allow access to the
database, or you just get people with access to the devices
downloading people's private pictures and having a laugh at them, or
start selling pictures of your children to child pornography groups,
or when you do the research and find that minority groups STOP TALKING
TO EACH OTHER even if they SUSPECT that their conversations could be
listened into and they could be killed or jailed for expressing their
opinion...

so the bottom line is, chris, *you* don't have anything to hide...
*at the moment*.

l.

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[Hrvoje Lasic]

Post by Christopher Havel
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I
mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I
don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being
afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a
very good security policy.

I would agree on this point. So, security itself is not issue for most of
ppl.

But there must be business case where it is.

[Christopher Havel]

@luke -- I'll agree with you on the first point. I hadn't thought of that
one.

The second, though... someone would have to plant something to get me. I've
thought about that. I'm so clean, I squeak. I *may* have one or two
skeletons from forever ago -- but I can guarantee you quite nicely that the
statute of limitations has long since run out on anything I was ever stupid
enough to do when I was younger -- and I'm not stupid any more ;) I suppose
if someone wanted to blackmail me and was *really* desperate, they might
find something, but I'd be quite surprised. Besides. The other half of my
security policy is to do my best not to make enemies in the first place ;)

[h***@wolfgangromey.de]

You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future turn against you. Wolfgang

Post by Christopher Havel
@luke -- I'll agree with you on the first point. I hadn't thought of that
one.
The second, though... someone would have to plant something to get me. I've
thought about that. I'm so clean, I squeak. I *may* have one or two
skeletons from forever ago -- but I can guarantee you quite nicely that the
statute of limitations has long since run out on anything I was ever stupid
enough to do when I was younger -- and I'm not stupid any more ;) I suppose
if someone wanted to blackmail me and was *really* desperate, they might
find something, but I'd be quite surprised. Besides. The other half of my
security policy is to do my best not to make enemies in the first place ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Christopher Havel]

I find the chances of that rather low, and predictably so. Possible, yes,
but not likely. And I do not partake in anything stronger than caffeine.

I'll save my worrying for when there's obvious harbingers of incoming
trouble. We're *definitely* not there right now.

[Matt Campbell]

Post by h***@wolfgangromey.de
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or
drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will
in the future turn against you. Wolfgang

Or having the wrong nationality or ethnicity or religion (or no
religion), depending on who's in power.

Matt

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[Christopher Havel]

Tell you what. I'll start worrying under one of three conditions. One,
Donald Trump actually wins in November. Two, he doesn't win and instead
those who voted for him actively begin a second US Civil War. Three, some
outside group creates conditions that mandate a World War III.

Those right now are, in entirety, the things that are on my SJHTF radar,
and they are listed in order of presumed likelihood.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by h***@wolfgangromey.de
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or
drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will
in the future turn against you. Wolfgang

Or having the wrong nationality or ethnicity or religion (or no religion),
depending on who's in power.

... yeah how did that work out in pohl pot's regime?

l.

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Post by h***@wolfgangromey.de
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking
beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future
turn against you. Wolfgang

welcome to 1984...

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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by Hrvoje Lasic

Post by Christopher Havel
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I
mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I
don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being
afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a
very good security policy.

I would agree on this point. So, security itself is not issue for most of
ppl.
But there must be business case where it is.

well the simplest business case for the average end-user is: it saves
a lot of battery life and money! you only use bandwidth when you
switch the modem on.... and all those apps that monitor you and waste
your money... all gone.

l.

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[Christian Kellermann]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

It would be great, if this could be come to life too.

working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.

btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard
kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found
out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths
in these modems.
i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of
hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that
i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the
question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to
arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the
end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".

This is part of the GSM standard. The SIMs need to be able to run Java
applets insider their processor. Allowing the tracking of the device
amongst other things. This has been made public in 2013:

https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5449_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312271715_-_mobile_network_attack_evolution_-_karsten_nohl_-_luca_melette

Kind regards,

Christian

--
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suffering, and may you live with ease.

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On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Christian Kellermann

Post by Christian Kellermann

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in
a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a
hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.

It would be great, if this could be come to life too.

working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.

btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard
kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found
out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths
in these modems.
i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of
hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that
i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the
question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to
arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the
end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".

This is part of the GSM standard. The SIMs need to be able to run Java
applets insider their processor. Allowing the tracking of the device

jaezuss. ok thank you.

Post by Christian Kellermann
https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5449_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312271715_-_mobile_network_attack_evolution_-_karsten_nohl_-_luca_melette
Kind regards,
Christian
--
May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from
suffering, and may you live with ease.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

oops.... quotes from code.fairphone.com....

http://disq.us/p/17xl8mp

M.Stramm M.Stramm • 4 months ago

Pretty bad not bad enough? Well, the legalese gets worse:

"This Agreement can be terminated in writing by Fairphone, at any
time, without prior notice. Upon termination, you must destroy the
Software, all backup copies, and all related material."

How do I truly own a phone that's based on software I can be legally
forced to destroy at any time for any reason by the manufacturer?


On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Wolfgang Romey
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4-4-coming-soon/

goood.... but are they providing the full source code? if not,
they're actually operating as a *Criminal Cartel* - as an Organised
Crime Syndicate! and it's illegal to fund organised crime. this is
not a joke.

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[Hrvoje Lasic]

Post by Wolfgang Romey
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors-of-the-mobile-industry/
Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?

yes, lets start from Apple

http://www.apple.com/recycling/

Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled.
Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on
market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is
responsible for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not
only paid by this money but also there is money to be made from raw
materials.

In third world countries there might be a problem but as I said garbage is
not garbage but opportunity to make some money so as long as there is
system organized it will be done. Certain % of devices can not be recycled.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled.
Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on
market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is responsible
for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not only paid by
this money but also there is money to be made from raw materials.

i think it was phil who mentioned that the concentration of heavy and
rare earth metals is now higher in landfill sites than they are in the
original mines...

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[Hrvoje Lasic]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled.
Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on
market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is

responsible

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not only

paid by

Post by Hrvoje Lasic
this money but also there is money to be made from raw materials.

i think it was phil who mentioned that the concentration of heavy and
rare earth metals is now higher in landfill sites than they are in the
original mines...

truth