Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] ppcnotebook
r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-09-11 20:33:24 UTC
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https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/
Do you know them?
Are they credible?
Thank you.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-12 01:30:52 UTC
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Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/
Do you know them?
personally, i've been talking to them on and off for a couple of years now.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Are they credible?
that's up to you to assess, based on what you see. personally i love
their teamwork spriit.

l.

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Christopher Havel
2017-09-12 04:26:37 UTC
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Ugh, PowerPC? Whenever I hear /anything/ about that particular
architecture, my mind leaps (with a profound groan) to the old PowerMacs of
the late 1990s and early 2000s. IIRC the reason that line died was part
popular idiocy and part architecture limitations -- PowerPC couldn't scale
its clock cycles fast enough to match x86's stuff, regardless of actual
performance and comparisons thereof (to the extent that they can be made!),
and people wouldn't buy them as a result, because they thought that clock
speed in hundreds of MHz (and, eventually, in GHz) directly correlated with
performance and capabilities the way horsepower does (for the most part)
with a car, even though clock speed hasn't worked like that basically since
computers stopped being the size of file cabinets... as a local friend of
mine pointed out, a 1MHz 6502 can run rings around a 4MHz Z80 (and,
probably, a 4.77MHz 8086!) -- and that goes back to the mid- and
late-/Seventies/!

To be fair, the friend I mention is a Commodore /nut/ and thus rather
biased (as am I, in the same direction, albeit somewhat less so... I've
become rather more fond of the RCA CDP1802, as of late... ah, but *that*
architecture was weed-baked-sloth kinds of slow...).

So from my perspective, PowerPC was a flash in the pan, and now it's
basically irrelevant. Sort of like Ralph Nader, you know? He had his
fifteen minutes (a couple times over, really -- first with the Chevy
Corvair, and then again when he ran for President in 2000) but they're over
now and these days he's basically all alone in the corner by himself
because he's old news. I've not heard of anything both innovative and
relevant being done with PowerPC since Apple dropped it like the
radioactive potato that it was... so forgive the extreme skepticism here
and now as well.

Mind you, I'm not saying that that project should dry up and blow away -- I
don't think that, even for a hot minute -- but I really don't think their
choice of architecture is wise, nor do I think they're going to capture
even a meaningful portion of the /hobbyist/ computing market, and that's a
niche kind of a segment to begin with... not to mention that popular idiocy
with regard to technology is at an all-time high and climbing fast (ugh ugh
ugh)...

Hey, I've been wrong before. Maybe they're /totally/ the future of
computing and they start this huge revolution that completely changes
everything forever and kills off x86 and Windows the way x86 and DOS
knocked off CP/M and 8080/Z80-based computing. Or... not. /My/ money's on
"or not", and that they either fizzle out without anyone else really
noticing, or spend their efforts only to become instantly mired in
irrelevancy, or (most likely) some unfortunate combination of both -- but I
guess we'll just have to wait and see, to know for sure...

...good lord, I'm only 31 and I'm already turning into that
overly-opinionated uncle everyone has at their holiday table that just
can't shut up about, well, dang near everything... I'll pipe down for a
while now. (Sorry, everybody... maybe I really do need one of those
On-And-On Anon twelve-step meetings for people who just can't shut up...)

...we now return to your regularly-unscheduled programming...
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-12 04:29:04 UTC
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On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Ugh, PowerPC? Whenever I hear /anything/ about that particular
ibm has power9 in 14nm, up to 4ghz now and using 2400mhz ECC DDR4.

l.

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Christopher Havel
2017-09-12 04:32:24 UTC
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Forgive my own stupidity on the subject, but what's the difference between
PowerPC as implemented in the PowerMacs of yore, and this "Power9" thing
you mention? I assume there *are* differences? I haven't really paid that
stuff attention (mostly because I didn't think it was worth it!) in well
over a decade.

...although, that does sound like it's got some promise to it...
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-12 04:34:28 UTC
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On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Forgive my own stupidity on the subject, but what's the difference between
PowerPC as implemented in the PowerMacs of yore,
probably power8.
Post by Christopher Havel
and this "Power9" thing
you mention? I assume there *are* differences? I haven't really paid that
stuff attention (mostly because I didn't think it was worth it!) in well
over a decade.
google them. wikipedia. look up Talos II

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Christopher Havel
2017-09-12 04:46:27 UTC
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...okay, I understood probably about 3/4 of what I read, but I am rather
impressed. Sounds like they've come a ways since Apple dumped them a decade
or so ago. I still think that very few members of the general public will
be interested, but that's mostly because most people cling hard to what
they're familiar with, and (sadly) a massive portion of that is Windows...

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Forgive my own stupidity on the subject, but what's the difference
between
Post by Christopher Havel
PowerPC as implemented in the PowerMacs of yore,
probably power8.
Post by Christopher Havel
and this "Power9" thing
you mention? I assume there *are* differences? I haven't really paid that
stuff attention (mostly because I didn't think it was worth it!) in well
over a decade.
google them. wikipedia. look up Talos II
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Andreas Grapentin
2017-09-12 05:06:35 UTC
Permalink
you should probably also take a look at the open power foundation.
IBM is being much more friendly these days, with academia as well.

-A
Post by Christopher Havel
...okay, I understood probably about 3/4 of what I read, but I am rather
impressed. Sounds like they've come a ways since Apple dumped them a decade
or so ago. I still think that very few members of the general public will
be interested, but that's mostly because most people cling hard to what
they're familiar with, and (sadly) a massive portion of that is Windows...
On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 5:32 AM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Forgive my own stupidity on the subject, but what's the difference
between
Post by Christopher Havel
PowerPC as implemented in the PowerMacs of yore,
probably power8.
Post by Christopher Havel
and this "Power9" thing
you mention? I assume there *are* differences? I haven't really paid that
stuff attention (mostly because I didn't think it was worth it!) in well
over a decade.
google them. wikipedia. look up Talos II
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Christopher Havel
2017-09-12 05:18:22 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure if you're talking to me or Luke... if it's me, the only
product line of Intel's that I'm interested in is now a ghost... namely the
Atom SoCs, like the Z3735F, which they stupidly killed off because I guess
they don't like all those Chinese clones of the Compute Stick or something.
Dunno. Given all of those clones that are on eBay (as sticks and as
so-called "MiniPC" boxes), it's not like they weren't shifting enough chips
or anything... and the only thing I don't like about them (other than poor
Linux support, which has mostly been rectified already) is that you can't
backport them to Win7 because of the low-level interface crap that W7
doesn't have drivers for because nobody took up the bother.

...for the record, I'll use Win7 for a few things... but don't ask me to
use anything newer, I don't trust it and I can't stand the look...
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-12 05:33:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
I'm not sure if you're talking to me or Luke... if it's me, the only
product line of Intel's that I'm interested in is now a ghost... namely the
Atom SoCs, like the Z3735F, which they stupidly killed off
stupidly yes
Post by Christopher Havel
because
.. they don't care if they're cloned: intel makes money selling the
SoCs if they're cloned or not-cloned.

no the reason is: they make a specific batch of the processors,
making it a large batch so that they can tune one of the wafer
manufacturing machines over a period of several months to get it up to
as close to a 100% yield as they can, then stockpile them.

remember this is intel trying its hand at what it thinks is
*mass-volume* marketing.

when that lot runs out, they have a choice:

(1) make some more (and by "more" i mean '10 to 100 million") - again
starting the entire tuning process from scratch because it's unlikely
to be the exact same machines or conditions

(2) recognise that the SoC is by now hopelessly out of date, and
would totally fail to sell even if it was done at a good yield, so can
it completely.

this is how it works. you can't just turn on the tap on these
foundries and out pops a working set of wafers with 5,000 fully
working ICs 100% on every wafer. the first wafers are hopelessly poor
yield: 10 to 25% if you're extremely lucky. it's only by slowly
working out what's wrong that you can fine-tune the machine in a
hundred different ways to get the yields up, and that literally takes
months.

so to get the best return on profit with these mass-produced SoCs you
have to take an enormous risk each time and make several million.

now, for the LONG TERM processors it's a totally different matter.
those intel puts out at something insane like a 5 to 10 times markup.
and that markup covers the poor yields involved in restarting a
production run.

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Hendrik Boom
2017-09-12 13:15:48 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
no the reason is: they make a specific batch of the processors,
making it a large batch so that they can tune one of the wafer
manufacturing machines over a period of several months to get it up to
as close to a 100% yield as they can, then stockpile them.
Wasn't the power processor used in Sony's playstations a while back,
with something like five or six CPUs and some other thing to
coordinate them? I heard they got around the yield problem by making
them all with extra processors so they could make a subset of
them that happened to work available in the actual delivered machine.

-- hendrik

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m***@gmail.com
2017-09-12 14:21:27 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
Wasn't the power processor used in Sony's playstations a while back,
with something like five or six CPUs and some other thing to
coordinate them?
Yes the PS3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)

And they used repeatatly in a cluster setup, US Air Force had a setup
of 1760 PS3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster
Post by Hendrik Boom
I heard they got around the yield problem by making
them all with extra processors so they could make a subset of
them that happened to work available in the actual delivered machine.
That's a common practice these days.

Small defects hinder speed. Thus sell them with a lower speed rating.
That's why overclocking yields different results for different cpu's
the CPU's are sold batched on the lowest common.

With bigger defects they can overcome by adjusting microcode to compensate.

With the rise of multi core. Defect cores are disabled and those CPU's
are sold as cpu's with less cores. Sometimes you can get lucky and can
re-enable core's.

So same CPU is sold in different guises. Just according to quality and
sometimes demand.

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Bill Kontos
2017-09-13 10:21:58 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Small defects hinder speed. Thus sell them with a lower speed rating.
That's why overclocking yields different results for different cpu's
the CPU's are sold batched on the lowest common.
With bigger defects they can overcome by adjusting microcode to compensate.
With the rise of multi core. Defect cores are disabled and those CPU's
are sold as cpu's with less cores. Sometimes you can get lucky and can
re-enable core's.
So same CPU is sold in different guises. Just according to quality and
sometimes demand.
In theory this is correct, in practice, at least on the x86 area
intel's desktop cpus are mostly quad cores, and on laptops all the
dual cores so far have been SoCs with the chipset on the die, while
the mobile quad cores were not. So it's not possible for intel to ship
dual cores derived from quadcores. On gpus this is common practice, to
the point that I remember some amd card that some cores were disabled
via firmware which people just flashed to reenable them with varying
success given that in most cases those cores were disabled for a
reason.

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Stefan Monnier
2017-09-14 12:16:34 UTC
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Post by Christopher Havel
Forgive my own stupidity on the subject, but what's the difference between
PowerPC as implemented in the PowerMacs of yore, and this "Power9" thing
you mention?
IBM has always had a line of beefy POWER processors (some of which
implement the PowerPC instruction set, others not (tho it's always very
close)), for use in their workstations and mainframes. Those are/were
of no use to Apple who needed low-power CPUs for its laptops.


Stefan


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