On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:30:13 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasOn Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by David NiklasOn Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonUSD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to
100% completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a
smaller geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU
would be damn good).
l.
On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonBest knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?
what would happen if you did? and, what else could you do with
the same money?
well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D
graphics *without* paying anyone a cent. any company tries to
claim patent royalties, all that happens is a search is made on
their "claims", for anything similar that has prior art.
if it's another company, guess what? we notify that other
company and watch the fireworks...
l.
1M - 150k = 750K!!!
Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!
it depends on what you take into account. if someone else pays the
NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
$250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.
My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) =
550K for the silicon, and that's huge!
relatively speaking it's tiny.
That's the equivalent of a good house over here *totally paid for*!
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasWhat is the cost here?
it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
about 5 seconds thought. the focus was more "a much higher bang per
buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
statement of work".
it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
general question without specific information.
Post by David NiklasSilicon as an
element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW
paid for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half
node, 28nm started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on
it for 3+ years.
28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
are i think USD $2m. it's an exponential curve. 45nm is $1m. it
drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.
I had imagined that with at least 4 people (by my memory and including
me), offering you funding (in the fullness of time), you might have taken
a cursory look into the matter.
<snip>
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasPost by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonlast time i collaborated with an associate to
come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client)
and it took us around five days to put that together. however that
particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
requirements.
:(
I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.
If aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
cover the production mask charges. hence why i am interested to work
with IIT Madras.
If requiring, for example, a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
that budget would be taken up. Hence why I am interested in HyperRAM
(upcoming JEDEC xSPI).
URL?
I've only heard of the upcoming DDR5 non-volatile memory.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonIf not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
to be hired to do the work. hence why I am interested in Magic,
alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
open ASIC layout tools.
There is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.
Open source HW is going to require lots of talking, luke, esp. as each
part of the work gets closer to fruition. I don't deny your wisdom in
discerning your own path, but please consider at least attempting to take
on a liaison/spokesmen if you cannot keep up.
Remember The Foul Mouth of Sauron from LOTR? :)
<snip>
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasI don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention
to. And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)
Double self canceling absolute. Grammar error. SEGFAULT. Core dumped. :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightoni am first and foremost an ethical person,
Me too(TM).
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonwho goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
until success.
That is *amazing*! You really sound like you know what you're doing.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonit means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
double-check and triple-check.
Don't look at me, I'm almost the same way. :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasI had assumed that
some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG
have Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
opensourcing anything if they could help it.
YA THINK???
This is an important difference between us, I see people as having a
choice, where any day the CEOs of these companies could wake up and say,
"We have been using FLOSS for years and have not given a fraction of what
we have made back; I shall be the opensource monetary sponsor and
pathfinder for their endeavors."
Or, how about using this line of reasoning, "We treat the FLOSS devs as
expendable laborers. Like of old, in Egypt, we are their cruel
taskmasters, our thirst for their sweat and blood never satisfied. Truly,
they donate their lives to the cause, and we have only beads and trinkets
to offer them in return. Indeed, I shall reward their efforts, and see
that every devotee receives his due."
Stallmen and ESR both thought that FLOSS just needed to prove itself to
catch on. I bought into that strategy. I gave it up after 6 years. There
is a lot more morals involved than that. Even AMD's FLOSS diver is more
about the economics than anything else.
Did I mention that mixed source was returning under the guise of FLOSS
through chromium/android et. al.?
We need a leader for the OSH, someone who will stand up to the vendor
lock in/greedy bullies of out time. I thought RMS, then luke would be it,
but not so. You're a great person, luke, but you don't seem the type.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasChromium's binary blob
problems are even further proof.
This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at
I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for
OSH, and "I think I can"(TM).
awesome. well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
a much larger deal, ok?
Ok, but I must confess I have been thinking and planning this for a long
time and have quite a few good ideas about the implementation.
I also have a thick head and no idea what I'm talking about. :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasPost by Luke Kenneth Casson LeightonPost by David NiklasI'm planning on calling you on this one
excellent. well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list),
you let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which
will be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be
done, and what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
l.
I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products
to be developed that I have my eyes on.
Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side deal"?
ok, so let's say we make a chip. it's successfully made, it's all
done, and it works, right?
and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
and... total absolute silence.
egg.
on.
face.
Eventually we will need normal people to be our user base. I know a bit
about marketing, but estimating demand or creating a sense of needing
non-propriety HW? *I have totally no idea*.
At all.
Ponder that for me luke, it is the one mystery that *totally evades* me.
The best I can do where I live is get blank looks and, "I want my icons!"
and "What I have now works." statements. Really!? That is all?! You, the
end user could have SO MUCH MORE!
They simply don't know what wonders and powers they're missing out on.
And how badly they are used and abused.
And then stuck through the meat grinder again and again.
They say/act like, "We owe [insert favorite company/politician]
everything."
"Yes," I respond, "that is what they want, *Everything*!"
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leightonso the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
such potential customers as can possibly be found.
and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
to actually get a serious order with a foundry.
now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
up-front, to get the SoC made.
that's what i mean by "side deals". deals "on the side" that result
in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.
l.
That's good. I thought you might have us eternally relying on a college
or some other deal where a slip of some money from [insert enemy company]
would lead to the projects all going down the drain.
And yes, if we *really* succeed the competition will band together and do
that to us.
If not the 3 letter US government agencies.
Thanks
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