Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 interface redesign
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-30 19:04:19 UTC
Permalink
https://www.skhynix.com/products/computing/view.jsp?info.ramKind=19&info.serialNo=H5TQ4G83BFR

ok i've done the interface redesign which i will document properly
later: SATA is gone, 2nd USB is in, i added one EINT and the 4th pin
is a VREF output for GPIO and UART voltage levels.

i also noticed that hynix do a 4gbit x8 RAM chip which is
pin-compatible with the H5TQ2G83BFR, so i *think* we can go to 2gbyte
of RAM.

thoughts?

l.
Boris Barbour
2014-05-30 20:13:53 UTC
Permalink
so i*think* we can go to 2gbyte of RAM.
Good news! It could be a reasonably capable machine.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-30 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boris Barbour
so i*think* we can go to 2gbyte of RAM.
Good news! It could be a reasonably capable machine.
yeah. now we have to test it, at least creating a batch of minimum 5
CPU Cards. just to be on the safe side, probably make 3 with 2Gbyte
RAM and 2 with 1 Gbyte RAM. i'm guessing we will need somewhere
around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.

joe if i get you the modified pcb layout can you handle getting this
sorted (PCB printed, populated etc.)?

l.
Boris Barbour
2014-05-30 21:14:43 UTC
Permalink
i'm guessing we will need somewhere around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
I'll contribute (you can give me a board if one is left over and still
works after testing). We need to make this happen.

Anybody else?

Boris
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-30 21:17:55 UTC
Permalink
i'm guessing we will need somewhere around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
I'll contribute (you can give me a board if one is left over and still works
after testing). We need to make this happen.
you're a star.
Anybody else?
i get paid in a few days. if there are a few more willing people i
should be able to cover the remainder.

l.
Paul NeoStormer
2014-05-30 21:20:14 UTC
Permalink
I would, but I'm a starving college student developing educational hardware
and software, if you'd asked me a month earlier or month later I'd probably
have had the cash to help out.


On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Boris Barbour <barbour at biologie.ens.fr>
Post by Boris Barbour
i'm guessing we will need somewhere around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
I'll contribute (you can give me a board if one is left over and still
works after testing). We need to make this happen.
Anybody else?
Boris
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-31 01:25:27 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
I would, but I'm a starving college student developing educational hardware
and software, if you'd asked me a month earlier or month later I'd probably
have had the cash to help out.
no problem paul, we will get there

... hey you're not planning to do what one guy i heard about at
imperial college did, are you? he got his university grant in (this
was 1987), paid his accommodation, then bought the best hi-fi stereo
he could get, with the rest. with the small change he went down to a
local farmer's market, bought several huge bags of oats, emptied the
drawers in his room, lined them with newspaper and poured in the oats.
anyway, a few months later the hospital said that he was the first
case of scurvy they had seen in decades :)

l.
Philip Hands
2014-05-31 23:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
I would, but I'm a starving college student developing educational hardware
and software, if you'd asked me a month earlier or month later I'd probably
have had the cash to help out.
no problem paul, we will get there
... hey you're not planning to do what one guy i heard about at
imperial college did, are you? he got his university grant in (this
was 1987), paid his accommodation, then bought the best hi-fi stereo
he could get, with the rest. with the small change he went down to a
local farmer's market, bought several huge bags of oats, emptied the
drawers in his room, lined them with newspaper and poured in the oats.
anyway, a few months later the hospital said that he was the first
case of scurvy they had seen in decades :)
I heard that one as being about a Manchester student, so either I told
you that story and its morphed into an IC student since, or (perhaps more
likely) it's an urban legend.

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/
|-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND
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Christopher Havel
2014-05-31 23:29:45 UTC
Permalink
[...] it's an urban legend.
Bingo. When *I* heard of it, it was institution-nonspecific, and it
referred to a fellow who ate nothing but ramen (super cheap instant
noodles, if you're outside the States) for an entire semester. Not to
mention that, after an entire semester of Nissin (or Maruchan if you prefer
it), his sodium levels would've given the Atlantic Ocean a run for its
money -- that crap is hardly anything but salt and simple carbohydrates...
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-06-01 17:22:43 UTC
Permalink
ok joe i've completed the routing, SATA was a bitch i had to put in
about 4 sets of VIAs and use the POWER layer for a short duration
around the SoC's BGA grid, but it's done. the big parallel groups,
RGB/TTL, HDMI, Ethernet, NAND and SD/MMC all got subtly shuffled and
shifted but mr xul has them all grouped veery neatly together, so i
have confidence that those subtle shifts would have added roughly the
same length to each.

btw i chickened out of adding a RESET/POWER line by taking over one of
the 5V lines - i feel it's too complicated to put in right now.

i'm happy for someone else to check this over - i will upload it for
ftp download, can you let your friend know? also i will contact the
PCB factory we have been using, their guy patrick is extremely
competent, he has been helping do verification of the PCBs we have
been doing and he has helped pick up errors in the past.

l.
joem
2014-06-02 06:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok joe i've completed the routing, SATA was a bitch i had to put in
about 4 sets of VIAs and use the POWER layer for a short duration
around the SoC's BGA grid, but it's done. the big parallel groups,
RGB/TTL, HDMI, Ethernet, NAND and SD/MMC all got subtly shuffled and
shifted but mr xul has them all grouped veery neatly together, so i
have confidence that those subtle shifts would have added roughly the
same length to each.
btw i chickened out of adding a RESET/POWER line by taking over one of
the 5V lines - i feel it's too complicated to put in right now.
i'm happy for someone else to check this over - i will upload it for
ftp download, can you let your friend know? also i will contact the
PCB factory we have been using, their guy patrick is extremely
competent, he has been helping do verification of the PCBs we have
been doing and he has helped pick up errors in the past.
Upload the gerbers and schematic and point. I download,
check and get a cost. The 2GB RAM is a winner.
(It will need a new script.fex to get it going I assume?)
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-06-02 07:00:14 UTC
Permalink
same place as last time. please arrange your friend to run and
generate gerbers i am very busy
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok joe i've completed the routing, SATA was a bitch i had to put in
about 4 sets of VIAs and use the POWER layer for a short duration
around the SoC's BGA grid, but it's done. the big parallel groups,
RGB/TTL, HDMI, Ethernet, NAND and SD/MMC all got subtly shuffled and
shifted but mr xul has them all grouped veery neatly together, so i
have confidence that those subtle shifts would have added roughly the
same length to each.
btw i chickened out of adding a RESET/POWER line by taking over one of
the 5V lines - i feel it's too complicated to put in right now.
i'm happy for someone else to check this over - i will upload it for
ftp download, can you let your friend know? also i will contact the
PCB factory we have been using, their guy patrick is extremely
competent, he has been helping do verification of the PCBs we have
been doing and he has helped pick up errors in the past.
Upload the gerbers and schematic and point. I download,
check and get a cost. The 2GB RAM is a winner.
(It will need a new script.fex to get it going I assume?)
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk
Paul NeoStormer
2014-06-03 21:14:35 UTC
Permalink
So I can't find the page where this was discussed but I was told that the
reason we couldn't go to a Quad-Core processor A31 was not because of pin
compatibility but because it utilized a different graphics
processor which we didn't really have open source for, a PowerVR instead of
the Mali-400. We today they announced the A33 which uses the same
Mali-400MP2 that the A20 uses, so is it possible to go to quad-core now?

If i'm completely wrong please let me know.
I also heard that it can use USB3 but I could be mistaken.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
same place as last time. please arrange your friend to run and
generate gerbers i am very busy
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok joe i've completed the routing, SATA was a bitch i had to put in
about 4 sets of VIAs and use the POWER layer for a short duration
around the SoC's BGA grid, but it's done. the big parallel groups,
RGB/TTL, HDMI, Ethernet, NAND and SD/MMC all got subtly shuffled and
shifted but mr xul has them all grouped veery neatly together, so i
have confidence that those subtle shifts would have added roughly the
same length to each.
btw i chickened out of adding a RESET/POWER line by taking over one of
the 5V lines - i feel it's too complicated to put in right now.
i'm happy for someone else to check this over - i will upload it for
ftp download, can you let your friend know? also i will contact the
PCB factory we have been using, their guy patrick is extremely
competent, he has been helping do verification of the PCBs we have
been doing and he has helped pick up errors in the past.
Upload the gerbers and schematic and point. I download,
check and get a cost. The 2GB RAM is a winner.
(It will need a new script.fex to get it going I assume?)
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-06-03 21:55:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
So I can't find the page where this was discussed but I was told that the
reason we couldn't go to a Quad-Core processor A31 was not because of pin
compatibility but because it utilized a different graphics processor which
we didn't really have open source for, a PowerVR instead of the Mali-400. We
today they announced the A33 which uses the same Mali-400MP2 that the A20
uses, so is it possible to go to quad-core now?
ooooo yes! hooray! if it's pin-compatible with the A20 we can use
it straight away.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-06-03 21:58:32 UTC
Permalink
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:prYbhMDZblEJ:www.allwinnertech.com/plus/view.php%3Faid%3D398&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1

ok it's pin-compatible with the A23. with the removal of SATA and
replacement with USB it can be done. i'll ask for some PCB CAD files.

l.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
So I can't find the page where this was discussed but I was told that the
reason we couldn't go to a Quad-Core processor A31 was not because of pin
compatibility but because it utilized a different graphics processor which
we didn't really have open source for, a PowerVR instead of the Mali-400. We
today they announced the A33 which uses the same Mali-400MP2 that the A20
uses, so is it possible to go to quad-core now?
ooooo yes! hooray! if it's pin-compatible with the A20 we can use
it straight away.
Philip Hands
2014-06-01 21:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Havel
[...] it's an urban legend.
Bingo. When *I* heard of it, it was institution-nonspecific, and it
referred to a fellow who ate nothing but ramen (super cheap instant
noodles, if you're outside the States) for an entire semester. Not to
mention that, after an entire semester of Nissin (or Maruchan if you prefer
it), his sodium levels would've given the Atlantic Ocean a run for its
money -- that crap is hardly anything but salt and simple
carbohydrates...
Ah right, that made it worth looking up:

http://www.snopes.com/college/horrors/scurvy.asp

The cited version at the start there is pretty much exactly the version
I heard, with the addition of the detail that he was supposed to be
frying the porridge stored in he chest of drawers, which is a nice touch
given that it's supposed to be a Scot ;-)

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/
|-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND
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joem
2014-05-31 12:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Boris Barbour
so i*think* we can go to 2gbyte of RAM.
Good news! It could be a reasonably capable machine.
yeah. now we have to test it, at least creating a batch of minimum 5
CPU Cards. just to be on the safe side, probably make 3 with 2Gbyte
RAM and 2 with 1 Gbyte RAM. i'm guessing we will need somewhere
around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
joe if i get you the modified pcb layout can you handle getting this
sorted (PCB printed, populated etc.)?
No problem, but remember, as company we still need the SATA.

It would be good if you can put in some wings that
can be broken off that has SATA and a lot more IO coming out
of FPC. The wings should be at the HDMI end because there
are a lot of PCMCIA cases with bulges at that end
for SATA, ethernet, wifi and so on.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-31 13:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Boris Barbour
so i*think* we can go to 2gbyte of RAM.
Good news! It could be a reasonably capable machine.
yeah. now we have to test it, at least creating a batch of minimum 5
CPU Cards. just to be on the safe side, probably make 3 with 2Gbyte
RAM and 2 with 1 Gbyte RAM. i'm guessing we will need somewhere
around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
joe if i get you the modified pcb layout can you handle getting this
sorted (PCB printed, populated etc.)?
No problem, but remember, as company we still need the SATA.
aw f**** :)
Post by joem
It would be good if you can put in some wings that
can be broken off that has SATA and a lot more IO coming out
of FPC. The wings should be at the HDMI end
there isn't enough space to do that....

ohhh waaait, i got one. there is *just* enough room to put an FPC20
underneath the MicroSD. 4 pins SATA.

i should just about be able to route the TS/CS group 0 (pin group
PE0-PE11) through to it via a couple of routes.

that's 16 pins... actually if i make it TS/CS group 1 (pin group
PG0-PG11) that would also give multiplex access to SD1 as well.

2 GND... 18... 1 5V 1 3.3V that's 20.

.... that good enough?

l.
joem
2014-05-31 18:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Boris Barbour
so i*think* we can go to 2gbyte of RAM.
Good news! It could be a reasonably capable machine.
yeah. now we have to test it, at least creating a batch of minimum 5
CPU Cards. just to be on the safe side, probably make 3 with 2Gbyte
RAM and 2 with 1 Gbyte RAM. i'm guessing we will need somewhere
around $1.5k for 5 boards including components.
joe if i get you the modified pcb layout can you handle getting this
sorted (PCB printed, populated etc.)?
No problem, but remember, as company we still need the SATA.
aw f**** :)
Post by joem
It would be good if you can put in some wings that
can be broken off that has SATA and a lot more IO coming out
of FPC. The wings should be at the HDMI end
there isn't enough space to do that....
ohhh waaait, i got one. there is *just* enough room to put an FPC20
underneath the MicroSD. 4 pins SATA.
i should just about be able to route the TS/CS group 0 (pin group
PE0-PE11) through to it via a couple of routes.
that's 16 pins... actually if i make it TS/CS group 1 (pin group
PG0-PG11) that would also give multiplex access to SD1 as well.
2 GND... 18... 1 5V 1 3.3V that's 20.
.... that good enough?
One 20 pin FPC at the microSD end of the EOMA with SATA
and more IO pins ought to enough for anyone (TM).

Alternatively a SATA, a second USB in exchange for reduced IO pins
ought to be enough for anyone else (TM).

The GND, 5V, 3.3V essential.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-31 18:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
.... that good enough?
One 20 pin FPC at the microSD end of the EOMA with SATA
and more IO pins ought to enough for anyone (TM).
ok done.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-31 21:17:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by joem
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
.... that good enough?
One 20 pin FPC at the microSD end of the EOMA with SATA
and more IO pins ought to enough for anyone (TM).
ok done.
oo, you might just be a jammy git joe. i'm not very happy (i.e.
uncomfortable) with the amount of shifting around of things like the
ethernet, sd/mmc. NAND and HDMI that's had to take place, but i think
we will get away with it. getting SATA out is a complete bitch: i may
have to use the power plane for a few mm, it is very very tight around
the BGA CPU pins, but i at least have the tracks routed to within 8mm
of their destination, which is good news. not too much of a mess, had
to switch layers more times than i would like, but it is actually
going to fit.

more later.

l.
Paul NeoStormer
2014-05-30 20:21:52 UTC
Permalink
So they'll be 3 USB outputs on the card in total? I imagine the one that
was added will be USB 3.0.

Are the USB's just a pinout? no extra hardware other than adding a port?
OTG?

2GB of RAM sounds great! Should give the EOMA-68 a good running chance.


On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
https://www.skhynix.com/products/computing/view.jsp?info.ramKind=19&info.serialNo=H5TQ4G83BFR
ok i've done the interface redesign which i will document properly
later: SATA is gone, 2nd USB is in, i added one EINT and the 4th pin
is a VREF output for GPIO and UART voltage levels.
i also noticed that hynix do a 4gbit x8 RAM chip which is
pin-compatible with the H5TQ2G83BFR, so i *think* we can go to 2gbyte
of RAM.
thoughts?
l.
_______________________________________________
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-30 20:35:21 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
So they'll be 3 USB outputs on the card in total?
yes. 2 USB2 480mbit/sec, 1 USB-OTG, also 480mbdit/sec
Post by Paul NeoStormer
I imagine the one that was
added will be USB 3.0.
no, because the A20, which is being used in this first
EOMA68-compliant CPU Card, does not have USB3.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
Are the USB's just a pinout? no extra hardware other than adding a port?
correct.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
OTG?
yes.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
2GB of RAM sounds great! Should give the EOMA-68 a good running chance.
EOMA-68 is an interface standard, not a computer. i assume you mean
the EOMA68-A20 CPU Card.

l.
Paul NeoStormer
2014-05-30 21:00:33 UTC
Permalink
no, because the A20, which is being used in this first EOMA68-compliant
CPU Card, does not have USB3.

I understand the A20 doesn't have USB3, but does that mean all EOMA-68
cards cannot have USB3?
I have USB3 devices that default to USB2 speeds when the device isn't
equipped with USB3, but I think USB3 requires 5 extra pins.
EOMA-68 is an interface standard, not a computer. i assume you mean the
EOMA68-A20 CPU Card.

Yes, but I suppose it would also give the standard a good chance if the
first card out has decent specs.


On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Paul NeoStormer
Post by Paul NeoStormer
So they'll be 3 USB outputs on the card in total?
yes. 2 USB2 480mbit/sec, 1 USB-OTG, also 480mbdit/sec
Post by Paul NeoStormer
I imagine the one that was
added will be USB 3.0.
no, because the A20, which is being used in this first
EOMA68-compliant CPU Card, does not have USB3.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
Are the USB's just a pinout? no extra hardware other than adding a port?
correct.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
OTG?
yes.
Post by Paul NeoStormer
2GB of RAM sounds great! Should give the EOMA-68 a good running chance.
EOMA-68 is an interface standard, not a computer. i assume you mean
the EOMA68-A20 CPU Card.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2014-05-30 21:16:55 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Paul NeoStormer
no, because the A20, which is being used in this first EOMA68-compliant
CPU Card, does not have USB3.
I understand the A20 doesn't have USB3, but does that mean all EOMA-68 cards
cannot have USB3?
paul, please look at the specification.
Yes, but I suppose it would also give the standard a good chance if the
first card out has decent specs.
there are several barriers to entry for that to happen immediately.
if you have around $25k spare and contacts with any of the SoC
manufacturers that have USB3, and are happy to sign their NDAs, and we
are happy to delay the project by another four to six months getting
through all that, then it can be done.

so, we do this first CPU Card. which is ready to go.

l.
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