Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] tricky conundrum for the upcoming libre-riscv soc crowdsupply page: image needed
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-02 23:16:38 UTC
Permalink
ok so to start the new campaign, an image is needed. not a logo, an
*image*. something that "represents" a chip and its potential uses
and usefulness in a real and concrete way.

the problem is: this is a fabless semi-conductor design... there *is*
no chip, there *is* nothing to put out there, and because it's just
one component that goes *into* products, there *is* no frickin product
either! a confusing jumbled utterly boring montage of hypothetical
products would be needed.

even more of a conundrum: even putting up a picture of some BGA or QFP
packaging isn't ok either, because depending on the final pincount,
*AND* on large customer orders, the chip will be *custom packaged* and
tailored to their needs (i.e. the same die will have far more
interfaces added than there are actual pins, and the die re-packaged
to suit the customer's needs, leaving many of the pads disconnected
internally or connected internally to other dies).

if you look at every single campaign there is a nice "image". it's
either the first frame of the video, or it's a really cool-looking
shot of a PCB, or a 1in cubic robot:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/william-weiler-engineering/skoobot

logos are out, although not completely ruled out. if anyone would
like to convert the attached to PNG (with a variant placing a circle
behind the square) that would be really helpful.

so this is the challenge: come up with a suitable place-holder image.

l.
Christopher Havel
2018-11-02 23:21:37 UTC
Permalink
How about a low-res-ish image of the die?
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-02 23:24:05 UTC
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Post by Christopher Havel
How about a low-res-ish image of the die?
there isn't one.... and cannot be one.

the project requires the funding *in order* to create the very die
that is proposed to be added as the image to attract the funding that
will allow the die to be made.

and, depending on backing, the die will be utterly different anyway.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-02 23:25:10 UTC
Permalink
https://libre-riscv.org/shakti/m_class/

about the closest that could possibly be got is a form of high-level
block diagram (see image at above link).

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Christopher Havel
2018-11-02 23:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Second-best idea... I've seen older datasheets for 74xx parts where they've
put the image for the chip die *plan*. It always looks like it got copied
on a cheap fax machine that had never ever been cleaned of toner -- but
it's, you know, /there/.

Since what you want is a "representative" image -- put up the chip die plan
for the most basic of configurations, without any extras, and *include in
the image* a caption explaining that that's what it is -- the base
configuration, and that said configuration can and will be customized later
for individuals and companies with enough clout and MOQ.
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m***@gmail.com
2018-11-06 05:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok so to start the new campaign, an image is needed. not a logo, an
*image*. something that "represents" a chip and its potential uses
and usefulness in a real and concrete way.
the problem is: this is a fabless semi-conductor design... there *is*
no chip, there *is* nothing to put out there, and because it's just
one component that goes *into* products, there *is* no frickin product
either! a confusing jumbled utterly boring montage of hypothetical
products would be needed.
even more of a conundrum: even putting up a picture of some BGA or QFP
packaging isn't ok either, because depending on the final pincount,
*AND* on large customer orders, the chip will be *custom packaged* and
tailored to their needs (i.e. the same die will have far more
interfaces added than there are actual pins, and the die re-packaged
to suit the customer's needs, leaving many of the pads disconnected
internally or connected internally to other dies).
How about a (rendered) picture of all/most package types. With libre-riscv
+ package types as print on each


With a (blurry) zoomed in schematic of a design with logic gates

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/XOR_from_NAND.svg

but then bigger?
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Se
David Niklas
2018-11-06 04:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for getting back to you so quickly. :)

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 23:16:38 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok so to start the new campaign, an image is needed. not a logo, an
*image*. something that "represents" a chip and its potential uses
and usefulness in a real and concrete way.
the problem is: this is a fabless semi-conductor design... there *is*
no chip, there *is* nothing to put out there, and because it's just
one component that goes *into* products, there *is* no frickin product
either! a confusing jumbled utterly boring montage of hypothetical
products would be needed.
even more of a conundrum: even putting up a picture of some BGA or QFP
packaging isn't ok either, because depending on the final pincount,
*AND* on large customer orders, the chip will be *custom packaged* and
tailored to their needs (i.e. the same die will have far more
interfaces added than there are actual pins, and the die re-packaged
to suit the customer's needs, leaving many of the pads disconnected
internally or connected internally to other dies).
if you look at every single campaign there is a nice "image". it's
either the first frame of the video, or it's a really cool-looking
https://www.crowdsupply.com/william-weiler-engineering/skoobot
logos are out, although not completely ruled out.
As you said, it's a cat and mouse game. But I created something
anyway. Take a photo of your face when you see it...
It has 2 advantages. 1: Every techy knows what it is. 2: Every techy
knows that you are going to create something similar because there is no
way on God's green earth it's going to look identical.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if anyone would
like to convert the attached to PNG (with a variant placing a circle
behind the square) that would be really helpful.
The attached *is* a png. But I'm guessing you wanted an image from gimp...
The problem is that you never said what size you wanted it or what
color you wanted the circle...
So, I'm making up for that by using an svg (inkscape), and then outputting
two little images for your viewing pleasure.
You can use the original and blow it up to an arbitrary size.
Or customize it.

BTW: Did your daughter help draw it for you? It's a great opportunity for
dady time. :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so this is the challenge: come up with a suitable place-holder image.
See above.

I've been wanting to tell you of the 4 people who I think are supporting
you in an open GPU endeavor. In addition to myself and the Indian fellow
I was remembering that thinkpenguin supported your efforts once before
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so that's when he [chris from thinkpenguin] contacted me,
to sponsor the 15.6in libre laptop.
And I seem to remember the head of crowdsupply was interested in
sponsoring you for something, but I may be thinking of someone else.

Also, and this is pertinent, the reason I was able to contribute on such
short notice is because I was going through the political candidates and
got done early. You see, one of the guys running for CFO (Chief Financial
Officer), of FL is named Patronis.
Being a republican I expected a totally out of touch set of view points
but he said (this is not word for word), such things as, "We are using
a SW system that is not interpolatable with anyone
else's." Surprise!
"We currently have a bunch of 70 year olds running the system
and I am being advertised to by this vendor and that vendor and I'm
thinking that we will have to buy their labor force from outside the
state to run the new system!" Shock!
And, "The way to combat corruption is transparency. This is 2018! We have
the technology, we just have to flick the switch."
I think I passed out after hearing this level of intelligence from a
politician.
If you look him up I have to warn you, he was really hard to hear (16-bit
audio at 128K!).
If he gets elected he might be a good opensource advocate within the
government. But I am not planning to talk to him myself about it.

Sincerely,
David
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-06 05:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Niklas
Sorry for getting back to you so quickly. :)
*snort* - i made up for it by completely failing to notice the admin
messages...
Post by David Niklas
As you said, it's a cat and mouse game. But I created something
anyway.
oooo i looove the 3D one! can you fit "Libre" above that for me? i
*love* the font and the whole thing, it's awesome.
Post by David Niklas
Take a photo of your face when you see it...
It has 2 advantages. 1: Every techy knows what it is. 2: Every techy
knows that you are going to create something similar because there is no
way on God's green earth it's going to look identical.
:)
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if anyone would
like to convert the attached to PNG (with a variant placing a circle
behind the square) that would be really helpful.
The attached *is* a png. But I'm guessing you wanted an image from gimp...
The problem is that you never said what size you wanted it or what
color you wanted the circle...
So, I'm making up for that by using an svg (inkscape), and then outputting
two little images for your viewing pleasure.
You can use the original and blow it up to an arbitrary size.
Or customize it.
can you send me the svgs, i'm assuming inkscape can deal with
resizing of the primitive shapes: gimp i'd need to obviously do
pixel-level editing
Post by David Niklas
BTW: Did your daughter help draw it for you?
yes :)
Post by David Niklas
It's a great opportunity for dady time. :)
that was the plan :)
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so this is the challenge: come up with a suitable place-holder image.
See above.
I've been wanting to tell you of the 4 people who I think are supporting
you in an open GPU endeavor.
nice! in what capacity?
Post by David Niklas
And I seem to remember the head of crowdsupply was interested in
sponsoring you for something, but I may be thinking of someone else.
he definitely wants the libre-riscv campaign to start.
Post by David Niklas
Also, and this is pertinent, the reason I was able to contribute on such
short notice is because I was going through the political candidates and
got done early. You see, one of the guys running for CFO (Chief Financial
Officer), of FL is named Patronis.
"We currently have a bunch of 70 year olds running the system
and I am being advertised to by this vendor and that vendor and I'm
thinking that we will have to buy their labor force from outside the
state to run the new system!" Shock!
what's *wrong* with politicians these days?? they're supposed to be... be... :)

that's actually really sensible, to put it in terms of labour market impact.
Post by David Niklas
And, "The way to combat corruption is transparency. This is 2018! We have
the technology, we just have to flick the switch."
I think I passed out after hearing this level of intelligence from a
politician.
good god :)

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-06 05:36:58 UTC
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http://bugs.libre-riscv.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38

david i'm really excited about that 3D-looking one, i love it. could
you modify the words to:

LIBRE
RISC-
V

or, let me know how the heck you did it, and send me the source code?

l.

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David Niklas
2018-11-07 03:14:55 UTC
Permalink
PS:
Just to be extra clear. Luke I had NO idea you were unaware of the Ryzen
launch complete with blender benchmark. I thought you would recognize
that is where I got the original blend from. Maybe you did and you know
what the license is, but maybe you did not.

PPS:
AFAIK, various forums and websites have already used this and since they
are for-profit entities it follows that you might conclude that it is in
fact suitable for your campaign.

Sincerely,
David

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David Niklas
2018-11-07 03:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:36:58 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://bugs.libre-riscv.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38
Ah, a bug report for... brain storming? Cheater :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
David i'm really excited about that 3D-looking one, i love it.
Don't misunderstand me, I am really happy to hear that you like it, luke,
REALLY!!!
I just don't want to get you in trouble for taking an example to a
commercial use.

According to:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/post-your-ryzen-blender-demo-scores-amd-clarifies-blender-benchmark-confusion-run-150-samples.2494600/
This AMD guy appears to know something of the blend file, but I don't have
a reddit account.
https://www.reddit.com/user/AMD_james
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
LIBRE
RISC-
V
Done and attached!
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
or, let me know how the heck you did it, and send me the source code?
Attached!

Tell me what you decide! My current time is 20:07 EST. I will be here
till 00:00 EST (2 hours).

Sincerely,
David
David Niklas
2018-11-07 01:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Luke, I live in EST and until Friday I will be away from my keyboard most
days during working hours and then dinner time comes (and no, I really
can't skip dinner due to health reasons).

On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:58 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
Sorry for getting back to you so quickly. :)
*snort* - i made up for it by completely failing to notice the admin
messages...
ROFL
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
As you said, it's a cat and mouse game. But I created something
anyway.
oooo i looove the 3D one! can you fit "Libre" above that for me? i
*love* the font and the whole thing, it's awesome.
You're kidding?! No, you're not! Luke, that is AMD's Ryzen benchmark
with their CPU featured in the picture! I changed the letters, added our
logo, and removed their orange one!
As for the font, I know I try hard to do my best work, each and every
time, but it was HAND DRAWN WITHOUT PRACTICE (excluding the R from
Ryzen :) ).
Remember your 30 sec price estimation? This is my 3 hour blender cool
thing creation! I haven't touched blender in years! Until now...

I aught to check the license... Ok, I can't find anything on AMD's website
about the file at all. I've also tried searching in several places
throughout the web without success.
The file itself does not, but can, contain a license.
I downloaded it directly from AMD so no chance of file alteration.
http://download.amd.com/demo/RyzenGraphic_27.blend
A big company not specifying a license??? This is unheard of!

What are you planning to use these things for?

I could create my own CPU without any chance of copyright problems, but
the soonest I could have it done is Sunday.

I'll work on the rest of the lettering and send it later. Tell me what I
should do about the license and blend...
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
Take a photo of your face when you see it...
It has 2 advantages. 1: Every techy knows what it is. 2: Every techy
knows that you are going to create something similar because there is
no way on God's green earth it's going to look identical.
:)
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if anyone would
like to convert the attached to PNG (with a variant placing a circle
behind the square) that would be really helpful.
The attached *is* a png. But I'm guessing you wanted an image from
gimp... The problem is that you never said what size you wanted it or
what color you wanted the circle...
So, I'm making up for that by using an svg (inkscape), and then
outputting two little images for your viewing pleasure.
You can use the original and blow it up to an arbitrary size.
Or customize it.
can you send me the svgs, i'm assuming inkscape can deal with
resizing of the primitive shapes: gimp i'd need to obviously do
pixel-level editing
<snip>

Ummm, I included the SVG in the last email, just delete the green circle
and there you go!
Maybe you did not get it? Attaching again.

Sincerely,
David
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-07 05:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Niklas
Luke, I live in EST and until Friday I will be away from my keyboard most
days during working hours and then dinner time comes (and no, I really
can't skip dinner due to health reasons).
no problem
Post by David Niklas
On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:58 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
Sorry for getting back to you so quickly. :)
*snort* - i made up for it by completely failing to notice the admin
messages...
ROFL
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
As you said, it's a cat and mouse game. But I created something
anyway.
oooo i looove the 3D one! can you fit "Libre" above that for me? i
*love* the font and the whole thing, it's awesome.
You're kidding?! No, you're not! Luke, that is AMD's Ryzen benchmark
with their CPU featured in the picture!
aww shame
Post by David Niklas
I changed the letters, added our
logo, and removed their orange one!
As for the font, I know I try hard to do my best work, each and every
time, but it was HAND DRAWN WITHOUT PRACTICE (excluding the R from
Ryzen :) ).
yowch, ok. hmmm, well, it still looks awesome. i wonder if
something similar could be done...
Post by David Niklas
Remember your 30 sec price estimation? This is my 3 hour blender cool
thing creation! I haven't touched blender in years! Until now...
I aught to check the license... Ok, I can't find anything on AMD's website
about the file at all. I've also tried searching in several places
throughout the web without success.
The file itself does not, but can, contain a license.
I downloaded it directly from AMD so no chance of file alteration.
http://download.amd.com/demo/RyzenGraphic_27.blend
A big company not specifying a license??? This is unheard of!
What are you planning to use these things for?
slap them on the front page of the crowdsupply campaign.
Post by David Niklas
I could create my own CPU without any chance of copyright problems, but
the soonest I could have it done is Sunday.
hmmm now that you've done it i *may* be able to do something similar
using pyopenscad.
Post by David Niklas
I'll work on the rest of the lettering and send it later. Tell me what I
should do about the license and blend...
sadly we need to respect copyright law. default copyright law is
"permission must be sought and granted"
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
can you send me the svgs, i'm assuming inkscape can deal with
resizing of the primitive shapes: gimp i'd need to obviously do
pixel-level editing
<snip>
Ummm, I included the SVG in the last email, just delete the green circle
and there you go!
Maybe you did not get it? Attaching again.
not attached: i think i know why, i haven't added image/svg to the
allowed content filters for this list.

l.

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David Niklas
2018-11-07 05:46:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 05:25:11 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 05:32:58 +0000
<snip>
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
can you send me the svgs, i'm assuming inkscape can deal with
resizing of the primitive shapes: gimp i'd need to obviously do
pixel-level editing
<snip>
Ummm, I included the SVG in the last email, just delete the green
circle and there you go!
Maybe you did not get it? Attaching again.
not attached: i think i know why, i haven't added image/svg to the
allowed content filters for this list.
Now it is attached as a gzip.
Good night.

- David
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-07 07:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
not attached: i think i know why, i haven't added image/svg to the
allowed content filters for this list.
Now it is attached as a gzip.
gzip's not included in the list :) i had added svg. email it to me directly.

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d***@mail.com
2018-11-07 16:53:24 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 07:02:04 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by David Niklas
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
not attached: i think i know why, i haven't added image/svg to the
allowed content filters for this list.
Now it is attached as a gzip.
gzip's not included in the list :) i had added svg. email it to me directly.
I must have done something really bad in my former life...

You need to add everything but .EvilFile and .spam. :)

Sincerely,
David
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-08 07:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
gzip's not included in the list :) i had added svg. email it to me directly.
I must have done something really bad in my former life...
poked fun at an 8086, probably...
Post by d***@mail.com
You need to add everything but .EvilFile and .spam. :)
:)

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David Niklas
2018-11-07 01:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Addendum: I wanted the picture of your face for the ironic reaction you'd
get to seeing a proprietary CPU now relabeled as an ethereal on open
hardware CPU!

- David

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-11 15:38:50 UTC
Permalink
ha! suddenly realised, i can do a 3D thingy in openscad.

font = "Liberation :style=Bold";
fh = -0.4;
color("purple")
translate(v=[-10.1,2.6,fh]) {
text("Libre", 2.5, halign="center", font=font);
}
color("purple")
translate(v=[-10.1,0.1,fh]) {
text("RISC-V", 1.9, halign="center", font=font);
}
color("purple")
translate(v=[9.7,2.8,fh]) {
text("Kazan", 2.3, halign="center", font=font);
}
color("purple")
translate(v=[9.7,0.1,fh]) {
text("3D GPU", 1.9, halign="center", font=font);
}
translate(v=[-15.5,-0.5,-2.5]) {
color("yellow") {
cube([31,6.2,2]);
}
};

balls = 15;
pitch = 6/balls-0.035;
translate(v=[-0.3,2.5,-1.5]) {
color("green") {
cylinder($fn = 100, h = 2.1, r = 4.5000000000, center = true);

}
}
translate(v=[-0.3,-1.7,-0.5]) {
rotate(a=[0,0,45]) {
color("blue") {
cube([6,6,0.5]);
}
color("grey") {
for (i = [0 : balls]) {
for (j = [0 : balls]) {
translate(v=[0.25 + i*pitch, 0.25 + j*pitch,0.5]) {
if (i < 3 || i > 12 || j < 3 || j > 12 ||
(4 < i && i < 11 && 4 < j && j < 11)) {
sphere(r = 0.10, $fn = 30);
}
}
}
}
}
}
};
David Niklas
2018-11-12 03:04:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:38:50 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ha! suddenly realised, i can do a 3D thingy in openscad.
I wasted my life again....
No worries, I'm glad you could make something so cool looking. :)

Sincerely,
David

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-11-12 08:53:16 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by David Niklas
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:38:50 +0000
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ha! suddenly realised, i can do a 3D thingy in openscad.
I wasted my life again....
not at all! it would never have occurred to me to do that if you
hadn't shown me that other thing existed (ryzen one).
Post by David Niklas
No worries, I'm glad you could make something so cool looking. :)
just have to pick some colours

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