Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 09:59:04 UTC
Permalink
ok so the past couple of updates i sent out i mentioned that there's
no longer sufficient funds in the current campaign to further pay
accommodation or any other living expenses. thus it is *really
important* that i find sources of funds, immediately. beyond that, i
may have found something that's worth exploring that has the potential
to fund pretty much absolutely everything that we want to achieve, if
it is leveraged correctly.

one of the options that i am exploring is bltclub. i happened to have
0.65 BTC available, the price of bitcoin happened to be rising such
that it was worth around USD $5000 at the time, i happened to hear
about bitclub from a friend, and my prior experience with bitcoin
mining i'd already done the preliminary analysis so it was an
extremely easy and fast decision.

bitclub - a group of like-minded people who happen to share a common
interest - mine three percent of the world's bitcoin. three percent.
at today's market rate that's twenty four ***MILLION*** US Dollars
being generated by this group, every month. that's a staggering
amount of money which immediately made it worthwhile investigating.

the members basically make their money in two ways:

(a) mining (of which they receive A HUNDRED PERCENT of the bitcoin
mined - unlike many other mining clubs which take say 10%)

(b) multi-level marketing. this is by far and above the more
profitable method and the fact that it exists is precisely why the
club can provide 100% of the mined bitcoin to people who *only*
wish... to mine bitcoin.

if you have ever done bitcoin mining, you will know that it is an
absolute pain in the neck, and you will also know that you cannot get
the equipment now for love nor money. not even bribes will work
because you still have to out-bid everyone else who's offering bribes
as well. and once you GET the equipment, if it breaks you lose
downtime... that's if you can actually get the person you bribed to
honour the warranty.

by using a *POOL* of people - buying in bulk - the "share" of the
*POOL* is available to you. one piece of equipment fails, so what,
that's amortised across thounsands of people. you also don't pay for
electricity or cooling. or have fans whirring 24x7 in your house.


now, i *already have* two other people signed up: i am a few points
away from hitting the first MLM milestone which would result in me
receiving TWO HUNDRED US DOLLARS A DAY in *addition* to the bitcoin
mining which is coming online in the next 48 hours.

i have two separate and distinct questions:

(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.

(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl

the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially
independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software.
there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP
mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that.

any questions feel free to ask.

l.

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m***@gmail.com
2017-12-27 10:25:03 UTC
Permalink
2017-12-27 10:59 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>:
Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad. I get that you're exited
and in need. But it's not boosting confidence.

Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of
crypto currency's

Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains
currency trading, which in itself is risky business.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
You sign me/us up, I/We pay?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl
I/We sign up and pay?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially
independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software.
there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP
mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that.
We pay a amount and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right?

If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring?

From what amount can I/We pitch in?

How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.

Kr, Mike

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Pen-Yuan Hsing
2017-12-27 10:49:15 UTC
Permalink
This sounds like a great opportunity. But I share Mike's questions. Can
you clarify what (1) and (2) mean and what's needed for us to pitch in?
Post by m***@gmail.com
Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad. I get that you're exited
and in need. But it's not boosting confidence.
Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of
crypto currency's
Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains
currency trading, which in itself is risky business.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
You sign me/us up, I/We pay?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl
I/We sign up and pay?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially
independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software.
there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP
mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that.
We pay a amount and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right?
If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring?
From what amount can I/We pitch in?
How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.
Kr, Mike
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 11:11:14 UTC
Permalink
This sounds like a great opportunity. But I share Mike's questions. Can you
clarify what (1) and (2) mean and what's needed for us to pitch in?
hiya pen-yuan, ha, bit of cross-over, i just replied to mike.

(2) you, as an independent individual, with your own money, sign up,
pay the membership yourself, buy equipment yourself, under my "tree".
over time if you happen not to put anyone under *your* "tree" i will
drop people in it *for* you. you'll end up receiving commission "for
free" so to speak (and so will i)

(1) you don't pay anything AT ALL. you sign up, and *I* will pay your
membership, *i* will buy your equipment. this can only happen OVER
TIME (perhaps in 1, 2 or 3 months time), and i will ONLY do this if
you are a software libre or hardware developer who is committed,
long-term.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 11:07:04 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad.
it happens - it's almost unavoidable at the quotes top level quotes
:) the key difference here is that the very "product" if you will of
the MLM is *LITERALLY* being actually CREATED and can be put back in
to buying more shares in the MLM which then make more bitcoin which
then... round the loop for about the next 3-5 years.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of
crypto currency's
that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their
experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go
up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*.
this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the
value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless.

a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is
senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed".
Post by m***@gmail.com
Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains
currency trading, which in itself is risky business.
ah no. that's one of the crucial mistakes. i am *not* in the
*slightest* bit interested in currency *trading*. it's risky, and
requires a huge amount of study, time and expertise to get it right.
i would in *no way* recommend to people to do *trading* of
crypto-currencies.

this is about mining, which is competely different, and i *have*
studied that in depth (over the years).
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
You sign me/us up, I/We pay?
option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining
and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct
link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or
future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or
can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64
project.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl
I/We sign up and pay?
option (2) you pay, yes.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially
independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software.
there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP
mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that.
We pay a amount
from $0 upwards, yes.
Post by m***@gmail.com
and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right?
if you have some relation to free software or libre hardware and have
or can demonstrate some committment to that... yes.
Post by m***@gmail.com
If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring?
whatever you want to do, independently. each person is entirely
sovereign and responsible for themselves. i would *like* - it would
be nice - at some point for people to *also* start signing up *other
people* and buying *their* initial equipment. the faster that is
done, i.e. the quicker you can get more people under your own network,
the higher the commissions.

the numbers here are just insane. the top levels are something like
USD $10,000 a *DAY*, actually probably far more than that.
Post by m***@gmail.com
From what amount can I/We pitch in?
anything from $0 to $99 to $600, $1100, $1600 or $3600.
Post by m***@gmail.com
How well guarded is the group?
they're pretty paranoid. they just had a THIRD PARTY service get
hacked, just 10 days ago, their infrastructure detected the attack -
which was against the developer platform not the main one - within
under 15 minutes and they shut down the entire web front-end
immediately.
Post by m***@gmail.com
The biggest risk in these "markets" is
please understand: this is NOT a market. it's a mining operation.
there is a massive, massive difference.
Post by m***@gmail.com
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.
this is not an "exchange", it is a *mining* operation. the system
"outputs" mined bitcoin to a given address that YOU specify in your
web console, every day. you are in complete control of what that is.
and are individually responsible for ensuring that you keep the
(local) wallet password etc. secure. on YOUR personal device(s).

i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the
ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a
distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network)

l.

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Hrvoje Lasic
2017-12-27 12:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their
experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go
up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*.
this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the
value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless.
a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is
senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed".
I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment.

Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most
probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to
fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme where
few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it.

You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price
fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you
cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end
make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but
making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and
buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not. There is no economy behind it, just
good idea and hype.

I have seen two projects based on cryptos in last two years, they are not
coin speculation but real ideas that society could benefit,that are
difficult to implement because lack of legislative, government want taxes,
stakeholders resist it etc. Unless you see some real business and/or
services based on blockchain there will be no real value of
crypto-currencies.

Yes, ti is good idea, but what is going on right now is not good at all and
if balloon burst it could do more harm then good.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 12:24:55 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their
experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go
up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*.
this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the
value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless.
a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is
senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed".
I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment.
if we were talking about *trading* bitcoin i would be concerned. i
am not in the slightest bit interested in *trading* of bitcoin. at
all. it's an extremely risky thing to do, and it requires an
extremely sound knowledge of trading, which you can spend a long, long
time studying. i simply don't have time for that.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most
probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to
fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme where
few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it.
You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price
fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you
cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end
make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but
making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and
buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not.
you've not been to Keene, NH, have you? :) or to PorcFest. i bought
a tornado potato 2 years ago, my friend paid in BTC for me. zapped
the QR code on the window :)

thinkpenguin have been accepting bitcoin as payment for years, now.
chris, the CEO, actually now pays all his home utility bills *and* his
car insurance... in bitcoin.

it turns out that on average, sometimes he loses 10% on BTC
fluctuation, sometimes he gains 10%. to support the *idea* - the
freedom of trade - he accepts that fluctuation graciously, as does
anyone else who trades in real-world items using bitcoin as the
currency it actually is.

the fluctuation is actually down to the fact that not *everyone* is
trading in bitcoin. think of it like this: if you were buying a
potato from a farmer and paying him in USD, would you go OH MY GOD,
THE YUEN HAS FLUCTUATED THIRTY PERCENT, PANIC PANIC PANIC!!! of
course not.

so *when* the hypothetical car you mention has all of the sales
employees paid in a (steady) bitcoin rate, when the *parts* of the car
are bought and paid for in a (steady) amount of bitcoin, the price of
the car *can* have a fixed amount (in bitcoin).

but it doesn't work that way, does it? so what do people do? well,
they either put up with the fluctuation, or they "pin" the amount that
you pay to within 10 minutes. you must make the transfer within 10
minutes or the rate is recalculated.

later on it will be possible - JUST LIKE EXISTING CURRENCIES - to go
to a broker who will GUARANTEE you a fixed exchange rate. two futures
trading markets have just been set up by large established companies
(there were plenty already), which will make that underpinning easier
to do.

... but all of this is completely a red herring.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
There is no economy behind it,
this is simply not true. it may be the case that you've never
*encountered* anyone who has paid or been paid for anything in
bitcoin.

l.

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Hrvoje Lasic
2017-12-27 12:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their
experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go
up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*.
this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the
value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless.
a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is
senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed".
I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment.
if we were talking about *trading* bitcoin i would be concerned. i
am not in the slightest bit interested in *trading* of bitcoin. at
all. it's an extremely risky thing to do, and it requires an
extremely sound knowledge of trading, which you can spend a long, long
time studying. i simply don't have time for that.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most
probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to
fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme
where
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it.
You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price
fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you
cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end
make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but
making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and
buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not.
you've not been to Keene, NH, have you? :) or to PorcFest. i bought
a tornado potato 2 years ago, my friend paid in BTC for me. zapped
the QR code on the window :)
Great, you bought something two years ago.

And in fact, two years ago the idea in my eyes has been better then it is
now as you had some remotely predictable value, it has been used by
criminals (that's business too). this is exactly reason why price si
inflated right now.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it turns out that on average, sometimes he loses 10% on BTC
fluctuation, sometimes he gains 10%. to support the *idea* - the
freedom of trade - he accepts that fluctuation graciously, as does
anyone else who trades in real-world items using bitcoin as the
currency it actually is.
Ok, I do a lot fo trade for living from 2001 and currently have more then
100 suppliers in China. I cant afford 10% fluctuations. And I am pretty
sure nobody can unless you trade (usually illegal) stuff with huge margins.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
There is no economy behind it,
this is simply not true. it may be the case that you've never
*encountered* anyone who has paid or been paid for anything in
bitcoin.
l.
Ok, For example we know that German economy GDB is something more then 3
trillion EURO. Do you have any idea what is economy behind i.e. Bitcoin
worth. Not this pumping up prices, but economy?

I really like idea of blockchain but what is going on right now is madness,
everyone who even dare to point things that do not looks good is labelled.
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m***@gmail.com
2017-12-27 12:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains
currency trading, which in itself is risky business.
ah no. that's one of the crucial mistakes. i am *not* in the
*slightest* bit interested in currency *trading*. it's risky, and
requires a huge amount of study, time and expertise to get it right.
i would in *no way* recommend to people to do *trading* of
crypto-currencies.
this is about mining, which is competely different, and i *have*
studied that in depth (over the years).
Yes your mining currency. Just like gold etc.

But you're putting in dollars/euro's/etc. When your buying stuf you'll
either find someone willing to accept your currency, bitcoin, or trade
you currency for an acceptable one: dollars.

So dollars->bitcoins->dollars. So currency trading you do. Just not
directly. The amounts of bitcoins vs. tradition currency fluctuates on
demand, availability and madness.

I consider "raw material" a form of currency as well. Weather you're
mining/cultivation minerals, oil, plants or animals.

Currency is just a means to trade with convenience. Usually done with
"precious" goods or contracts. Euro's/Dollars/etc are a form of
contracts as well.

We agree that a dollar is a notation of worth. When more dollars are
made (printed/stamped/booked) it's worth declines. But if the're more
stuf to consider worth, the worth of dollar inclines.

hmm I'm derailing from the topic here sorry ;-)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
You sign me/us up, I/We pay?
option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining
and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct
link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or
future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or
can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64
project.
Ah for every signee you earn commission, a slightly bigger share in
the mined goods.

I don't understand why you would put in money for someone else for
just the commission.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl
I/We sign up and pay?
option (2) you pay, yes.
And you get a commission. And if I sign someone else up we both get
commission. Hmm pyramids. The last one's to join get's the least.

Don't know If I like that approach. But if it helps you.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
How well guarded is the group?
they're pretty paranoid. they just had a THIRD PARTY service get
hacked, just 10 days ago, their infrastructure detected the attack -
which was against the developer platform not the main one - within
under 15 minutes and they shut down the entire web front-end
immediately.
Sane approach.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
The biggest risk in these "markets" is
market/exchange/operation/cooperation/etc.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
please understand: this is NOT a market. it's a mining operation.
there is a massive, massive difference.
Understood
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.
this is not an "exchange", it is a *mining* operation. the system
"outputs" mined bitcoin to a given address that YOU specify in your
web console, every day. you are in complete control of what that is.
and are individually responsible for ensuring that you keep the
(local) wallet password etc. secure. on YOUR personal device(s).
i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the
ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a
distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network)
Thank you, that's reassuring.

So basically you're buying in processing and infrastructure time, to
mine personally. And for every signee, who buys time, you bring you
get a bit more time on the operation.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 12:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Yes your mining currency. Just like gold etc.
But you're putting in dollars/euro's/etc.
they only accept bitcoin. that bitcoin is used to buy equipment...
that mines... bitcoin. they pay out... only in bitcoin. [actually
they now have GPU kit which can mine other currencies but i'm
personally not interested in that]
Post by m***@gmail.com
When your buying stuf you'll
either find someone willing to accept your currency, bitcoin, or trade
you currency for an acceptable one: dollars.
yehyeh. thinking further down the line, this is goingt to be...
interesting. they did actually have a VISA card for a while, it was
so popular it sold out immediately. they're planning to get some
more.
Post by m***@gmail.com
We agree that a dollar is a notation of worth. When more dollars are
made (printed/stamped/booked) it's worth declines.
*sigh* yes this is the crux of the message in senator ron paul's
book, "End the Fed".
Post by m***@gmail.com
hmm I'm derailing from the topic here sorry ;-)
:)
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
You sign me/us up, I/We pay?
option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining
and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct
link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or
future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or
can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64
project.
Ah for every signee you earn commission, a slightly bigger share in
the mined goods.
yeeees :)
Post by m***@gmail.com
I don't understand why you would put in money for someone else for
just the commission.
because it's a hell of a lot, man. jaezuss, i mean, just the one
more sign-up for a full share of mining equipment i get six THOUSAND
dollars a DAY. that could pay EVERYTHING i need to keep this project
going, right there!

beyond that, i can see the potential here, to not just pay for my
immediate financial needs and to cover the EOMA68 project, but
collectively as a group to fund - independently - things like the mask
charges for a libre RISC-V SoC. (if we even had to do that... it
might not be necessary to even do _that_). certainly it is within the
realm of possibility to fund a team of libre engineers to create the
software needed *for* that libre RISC-V SoC.

i would also be able to expand out to start the EOMA50 project (get a
smartphone reference design done) and so on.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would
be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about
bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here
http://bitclub.network/lkcl
I/We sign up and pay?
option (2) you pay, yes.
And you get a commission.
yyyup.
Post by m***@gmail.com
And if I sign someone else up we both get
commission. Hmm pyramids. The last one's to join get's the least.
the last one(s) have to wait 30 days for their equipment to be
bought, installed and commissioned. actually anyone buying a mining
share has to wait 30 days for it to be commissioned. 6 months ago it
was only 10 days but that was before a MASSIVE demand for equipment
went sky-high and the lead time on equipment went... over 30 days.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Don't know If I like that approach.
they have to make some money somehow. the 30 day "lag" allows them
to mine sooome BTC which funds the operation.
Post by m***@gmail.com
But if it helps you.
... helps me to help get the goal achieved. if someone else can
think of a better way, with as much potential, i'd love to hear it, do
a proper analysis, and go 100% at that instead.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the
ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a
distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network)
Thank you, that's reassuring.
So basically you're buying in processing and infrastructure time, to
mine personally.
yes. they operate most of the equipment - which *you* actually
genuinely own (if you want "out" they will do some calculations, make
you an offer for NNN's worth of your share of the equipment, and
you're out. they also *won't* let you join again except under
case-by-case circumstances. it's clearly a bloody nuisance to pull
equipment out of the rack).
Post by m***@gmail.com
And for every signee, who buys time, you bring you
get a bit more time on the operation.
.... not time, *equipment*. or, more specifically, a *share* of a
very very large world-wide pool of equipment.

if you recall, i did actually buy some bitcoin mining equipment, five
years ago. i think i mentioned it on here, at the time. it was a
f*****g nightmare. i ordered 3 bits of kit. one of them the PSU
didn't work, and one of the others went BANG within about 2-3 minutes.
so i was down by 2/3s and it was TWO MONTHS to go through the RMA
process, all the time watching the difficulty level go up, and up, and
up, because EVERYONE ELSE WAS RUNNING THEIR EQUIPMENT NOW.

it was right at the time when the first ASICs came out.

this taught me a hard lesson: under no circumstances buy and operate
your own equipment. one piece fails and you're screwed. the noise is
intolerable. the heat - basically having an oven operating in your
living room. the cost of electricity is insane.

i don't know if you _like_ the idea of a 1200 watt electrical
appliance running 24/7 in your house, with the inherent risk of a
fire, but i certainly didn't. particularly as *TWO* out of three of
the bits of kit that i'd bought DID actually go wrong.

so this is why i'm happy to buy *shares* in equipment that is run
off-site (most of it is in Rekyavik, Iceland), where electricity is
cheap and cooling is free. and if it goes "bang" it doesn't cause my
house to catch fire.

l.

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Luca Saiu
2017-12-27 11:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.
I respectfully disagree. The biggest risk is that those "programs"
actually shuffle investors' funds under the false pretense of doing
mining, then when the scheme inevitably collapses as recruiting slows
down the organizers do a runner or provide excuses such as "we got
hacked". This happens all the time.
--
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* GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon
* My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net

I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no
matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented
enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo".
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 11:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luca Saiu
Post by m***@gmail.com
How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is
that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed.
I respectfully disagree. The biggest risk is that those "programs"
actually shuffle investors' funds under the false pretense of doing
mining, then when the scheme inevitably collapses as recruiting slows
down the organizers do a runner or provide excuses such as "we got
hacked". This happens all the time.
well, luckily i had 0.65 BTC that wasn't doing anything, and i was
prepared to do the risk-benefit analysis and *personally* it came up
"can't ignore this opportunity if it turns out to be good".

they *did* actually get hacked... or... a third party service got
hacked... and they're back online.

i talked to my brother about this: he was scared witless by both the
amounts of money involved and the thought of "losing" (it's a family
trait i'm intent on stamping on, very hard). i explained to him that
the pool stats, which you can see here:
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
basically provide an underpinning which is NOT forgeable (if they were
forgeable then the entirety of bitcoin is forgeable and we're all in
the doo-doo).

look at the pool stats. then back-calculate 3% of total bitcoin
mining revenue. i did the maths: you can check it yourself, it comes
to twenty four MILLION dollars a month.

TWENTY FOUR million a month!

the organisers - and they're a disparate group, not even a *small*
group so it becomes *even harder* to organise a quotes scam quotes -
would have to be absolute FOOLS to walk away from that kind of money
by trying to do something as stupid as SCAM everybody!!!

remember: the mined bitcoin goes *out* of the network each day
(except if people choose to use it to buy more equipment,
automatically).

to specifically answer the issue you raise, it might actually be
possible to do an analysis, do some estimates based on numbers of
people who would have joined, then work out if they had the money *to*
actually create a "scam" of the type that you're suggesting. but...
honestly, given that it's a large *group* of people, rather than a
single person or even a small group, i don't think it's likely - at
all - that they will *all* wish to be scammers. it only takes one
person to "rat out" the entire group of [potential / hypothetical]
conspirators.

l.

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Luca Saiu
2017-12-27 11:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
Me.

You may want to have a look at this:
http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/

I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the
investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and
likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It
would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck
in a Ponzi.

Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining,
exist right now. This is not going to end well.
--
Luca Saiu
* GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon
* My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net

I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no
matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented
enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo".
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 11:37:54 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luca Saiu
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
Me.
cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up
(don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added
i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have
available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and
progressively pay for some equipment as well.
Post by Luca Saiu
http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/
yep... seen these, and more. don't - personally - need to see any
more :) however for anyone who wishes to convince themselves that
they shouldn't participate, they need only look at these types of
online sites in order to be "convinced".
Post by Luca Saiu
I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the
investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and
likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It
would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck
in a Ponzi.
(1) i have (personally) done *my* due diligence, and am (deliberately)
*ONLY* investing BTC (not actual cash) which i happened to have (from
5 years ago) plus some donations. i am risking no ACTUAL quotes money
quotes. at all.

(2) i have a friend whom i trust who put (actual) money in, i've
known him for 10 years. his commissions are... large. and actually
exist.

(3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are
LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this
is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever.
Post by Luca Saiu
Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining,
i know. this isn't one of them.

https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats

i've looked at e.g. gemini mining (whatever the hell they are
called). they are DEFINITELY dodgy. no pool stats. no way to verify
them. total secrecy..

this is completely different in just about every way possible.

l.

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Luca Saiu
2017-12-27 12:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luca Saiu
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
Me.
cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up
(don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added
i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have
available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and
progressively pay for some equipment as well.
I answered "Me" when you asked who would NOT like their funds to be
invested in bitclub.

Sorry, I will not sign up, and please do not use my name in anything
related to bitclub.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luca Saiu
http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/
yep... seen these, and more. don't - personally - need to see any
more :) however for anyone who wishes to convince themselves that
they shouldn't participate, they need only look at these types of
online sites in order to be "convinced".
It's always difficult to prove a negative; what behindmlm tends to do is
pointing out red flags, and argue that a suspect operation should not be
trusted without strong positive evidences of legitimacy, even more in a
situation where scams abound. When in doubt we should *not* believe.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) i have a friend whom i trust who put (actual) money in, i've
known him for 10 years. his commissions are... large. and actually
exist.
That is not a good way to tell whether the profit generates comes from a
legitimate source or from other investors.

Ponzi and pyramid schemes do pay, particularly to whoever got in at the
beginning -- but only until they inevitably collapse. The collapse also
results in legal liabilities for the net winners, which may be forced to
return what they illegally gained. The details of how clawback works
very by country, but if you are in the UK you should definitely be
concerned.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are
LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this
is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever.
It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being
generated actually comes from mining. In order to provide some evidence
to be used against us skeptics some scams do perform a token amount of
mining, insufficient to keep the scheme afloat but trackable to the
pool. I am not informed enough to judge the theoretical sustainability
of collective mining, at the current difficulty, with MLM commissions on
top; some people say it's impossible. I don't know, but know that many
programs with a similar pretense were scams and have already collapsed.
In such a situation I would require very strong evidence of legitimacy,
and this evidence is just not there.

This last point by itself is not a proof that bitclub is not a honest
operation (in actuality, we can't know), but some of the people involved
in bitclub also have a history of being involved in Ponzis, as pointed
out in the behindmlm article.
--
Luca Saiu
* GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon
* My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net

I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no
matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented
enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo".
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 12:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luca Saiu
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into
buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the
next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their
equipment.
Me.
cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up
(don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added
i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have
available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and
progressively pay for some equipment as well.
I answered "Me" when you asked who would NOT like their funds to be
invested in bitclub.
oh, sorry. ah, i know what happened: you read only the *first* part
of the sentence, where it was actually a *compound* sentence.
Post by Luca Saiu
Sorry, I will not sign up, and please do not use my name in anything
related to bitclub.
of course not!
Post by Luca Saiu
It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being
generated actually comes from mining.
it's a legitimate concern, and one that can't really be answered [not
without direct access to their database, which would be a massive
privacy violation and security violation]. we could theoretically
make some guesses and calculations on exactly how much money people in
the network will be receiving vs the amount of money that is going
"in", and see if the "scam" concept stacks up so to speak. if the
amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, then,
clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that they
would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere....

... and the most likely place that they would be getting that extra
BTC would be.... oh.... say... a massive pool of mining equipment
distributed world-wide in different geographical locations that is, in
total, generating 3% of the world's bitcoin according to globally
unforgeable statistics.

the fact that the pool exists is one of the most compelling arguments
- even without having access to the [private] statistics. *why* would
they be mining 3% of the world's total bitcoin being generated right
now... and yet *still operate a ponzi scheme*??? it just does not
make any sense... yeah?

l.

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m***@gmail.com
2017-12-27 12:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luca Saiu
It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being
generated actually comes from mining.
it's a legitimate concern, and one that can't really be answered [not
without direct access to their database, which would be a massive
privacy violation and security violation]. we could theoretically
make some guesses and calculations on exactly how much money people in
the network will be receiving vs the amount of money that is going
"in", and see if the "scam" concept stacks up so to speak. if the
amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, then,
clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that they
would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere....
I guess efficiency number are needed here. How much bitcoin is being
mined/generated per input (dollar/euro's/joules)

That's the same as for any mining operation. No need to watch how the
mining is done just is the cost of the operation lower than the the
yield.

That's why a lot of IRL miners work under such poor circumstances.

So where to find such numbers?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 12:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
I guess efficiency number are needed here. How much bitcoin is being
mined/generated per input (dollar/euro's/joules)
they're connected to the national grid in Iceland (they don't run
everything there, for security reasons) but it's a good percentage.
cooling is free (obviously), and they're actually going to be sinking
their own geo-thermal turbines.... on-site. electricity is *already*
cheap in iceland... so the cost of electricity can be assumed to be
negligeable or zero.
Post by m***@gmail.com
That's the same as for any mining operation. No need to watch how the
mining is done just is the cost of the operation lower than the the
yield.
That's why a lot of IRL miners work under such poor circumstances.
So where to find such numbers?
the pool stats give you the all-important number.

there are two bits of information that are really needed, to make a
proper assessment:

(1) how many people sign up per month
(2) how many people are *already* signed up.

i have access to the MLM structure (it's complicated, and very
large), it should be possible to make some reasonable estimates /
behavioural guesswork.... but it would *need* those two numbers.

i do know that they're starting to go mainstream (as in, a LOT of
people are hearing about them).

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 13:15:53 UTC
Permalink
btw, for those people still thinking this is a "ponzi" scheme... or
that it's a MLM that will collapse under its own weight... bitclub
*do* actually recognise - and anyone else who knows about bitcoin
knows this - that there's only probably about 3-5 years left where
bitcoin mining will make any sense.

it's down to the fact that the mining reward halves every 18 months.
right now it's a 12.5 BTC reward. in about a years' time it'll be
6.25. 18 months from then it'll be 3.125 and that means that, in one
years time, whatever the amount of BTC/USD is earned, that LITERALLY
halves LITERALLY overnight. 24 million USD equivalent per month for
the whole pool suddenly becomes 12.5 million USD equivalent.

EVERYONE KNOWS this... the people who've done their proper due
diligence at least.... IN ADVANCE.

so yes. in about... 3 to 5 years this entire operation is quite
likely to shut down.

l.

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Luca Saiu
2017-12-27 13:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
btw, for those people still thinking this is a "ponzi" scheme... or
that it's a MLM that will collapse under its own weight... bitclub
*do* actually recognise - and anyone else who knows about bitcoin
knows this - that there's only probably about 3-5 years left where
bitcoin mining will make any sense.
Mining will stop being profitable at some point. True, but unrelated to
the possibility of current mining being just pretend.

And I'm shutting up for real now.
--
Luca Saiu
* GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon
* My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net

I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no
matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented
enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo".
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Luca Saiu
2017-12-27 13:32:00 UTC
Permalink
if the amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in,
then, clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that
they would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere....
Correct, but that's a very big "if". I don't believe the hypothesis.
... and the most likely place that they would be getting that extra
BTC would be.... oh.... say... a massive pool of mining equipment
distributed world-wide in different geographical locations that is
Again correct, as long as the hypothesis above (the amount coming in
being less than the amount going out) holds.

Ockham says that borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is even easier; they
can pocket some amount, distribute some more thru MLM commissions, and
encourage investors not to cash out for as long as possible, hoping that
new funds keep coming. Some comparatively insignificant mining on top
of that will give a sense of legitimacy to new investors, keeping the
scheme alive longer.

I've given what I believe is fair warning; if it turns out I'm wrong,
which I unfortunately consider unlikely, that's better for everybody.
You say that the EOMA68 quotes are not at risk; okay, if the project
itself in not in jeopardy then I can be less nervous. This will be my
last messages on this topic for the time being (if bitclub collapses
soon I can't guarantee I won't succumb to the temptation of a "told you
so" mail).

However, Luke, I do appreciate the actual technical work you are doing.
--
Luca Saiu
* GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon
* My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net

I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no
matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented
enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo".
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-27 16:00:08 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luca Saiu
if the amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in,
then, clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that
they would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere....
Correct, but that's a very big "if". I don't believe the hypothesis.
... if there *existed* a way to find out the numbers that would
disprove the hypothesis (do a model of their business and see if it
can be proved that there's no way they could be financially viable) i
would do the model.

ultimately... i did the risk / value proposition a different way:
only put in those "funds"... not funds at all they're actually just
"numbers".... which were "free". i.e. i did NOT go out and register
on a bitcoin exchange, i did NOT register a bank account with them, i
did NOT give anyone cash in exchange for bitcoin.

i happened to have 0.4 BTC left over from some mining i did 5 years
ago, and someone donated me 0.25 BTC a few months ago.
Post by Luca Saiu
I've given what I believe is fair warning; if it turns out I'm wrong,
which I unfortunately consider unlikely, that's better for everybody.
yehyeh. it's why i didn't take *actual* cash, buy bitcoin, *then*
put it into bitclub mining shares. i've never actually registered on
any of these exchanges so couldn't get money in or out to USD or any
fiat currency even if i wanted to. i only used BTC which i happened
to already have.
Post by Luca Saiu
You say that the EOMA68 quotes are not at risk;
well, if i don't find *some* way to pay for food and the apartment
here, that is much more of a risk to the EOMA68 project than anything
else possibly could be, particularly as i am in a foreign country on a
tourist visa and they don't take too kindly to foreigners not being
able to pay for their own flight the hell out of the country.

i have enough cash (from a contract i did 3 months ago) to pay for
accommodation for about 2-3 months. if i have to pay the flight to
FOSDEM out of that, then that cash reserve drops to around 1-2 months.

that is far more of a quotes risk quotes to the EOMA68 project than
me taking 0.65 of a BTC which i happened not to be using, where BTC
happened to rise enough to the point where it was worthwhile throwing
it at bitclub.

so i have not quotes risked quotes anything. i have not spent actual
cash. and - this is REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET ACROSS - i have AT NO
TIME UTILISED ANY FUNDS FROM THE CROWDFUNDING.

i am going to emphasise this and say it in capitals only the once

i VERY VERY DELIBERATELY ONLY UTILISED THE BTC THAT I HAD MINED OVER
FIVE YEARS AGO (and 0.25 BTC which someone donated me about... 3-4
months ago).

if you recall, right at the beginning of the crowdfunding success,
one of my first posts was about getting the money the fuck out of the
US due to possible currency destabilisation, given that the U.S.
President's total lack of understanding of his new position
destablised BOTH the Mexican currency AND the Canadian one. if he'd
tried the same thing with the Yuan it could have wiped 10 to 15% off
the project right there.

now, luckily that didn't happen but i pointed out that there was NO
WAY that i could gamble with the money that had been entrusted to me,
and pushed for USD $60,000 to be transferred immediately... right
before Chinese New Year. we JUST managed to get the money out the
country in time.
Post by Luca Saiu
okay, if the project
itself in not in jeopardy then I can be less nervous.
if i don't find some way to pay for rent and food and the FOSDEM
flight then the EOMA68 project basically will be the least of my
concerns. i did put the message out on the last couple of updates. i
put it in a positive fashion, i received some very welcome suggestions
(and need to modify the rhombus-tech website to add a librepay and
also a BTC donation link)....

... nothing concrete actually received yet though.

so this, luca, is one primary reason *why* i am telling people about
bitclub, because it represents a very big jump in income. six
thousand dollars a month, tax free. that's more than i've ever earned
at even the highest-paying of any of the companies i've ever worked
at.
Post by Luca Saiu
This will be my
last messages on this topic for the time being (if bitclub collapses
soon I can't guarantee I won't succumb to the temptation of a "told you
so" mail).
:)
Post by Luca Saiu
However, Luke, I do appreciate the actual technical work you are doing.
thanks luca.

l.

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Philip Hands
2017-12-28 08:47:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net> wrote:
...
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are
LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this
is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever.
It seems to me that one way of looking at this is that they are using
other people's money to bet that the BTC price will go up on average,
and then using the resulting profit to do a spot of mining as cover.

Whether they are paying people back from the speculation profit and/or
in the traditional ponzi manner from later investor's funds doesn't seem
to make much difference to me.

Most of the people involved in this to date would almost certainly have
been better off simply buying BTC at the start, and selling them some
time later on.

Likewise, saying that you're only putting BTC in, and hence its only
pretend money (or some such) ignores the opportunity cost of no longer
being able to sell those BTC for cold hard cash.

So this looks to me like a ponzi built on a speculation bubble, which
might be a way of making the ponzi survive longer than it would do
otherwise, but if and when the BTC bubble bursts[1] investors are going
to discover that the people in charge have done a runner with the
remaining assets and that any balance still held within the scheme is
just gone.

Luke, given your repeated assertions about the importance of ethics I'm
astonished that you'd be willing to be anywhere near such a scheme.

Cheers, Phil.

[1] The actual underlying value of BTC, if it has one, seems to me to be
a decentralised medium of exchange. The volatility has recently
convinced Storm to stop accepting them:

http://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1464096684955433613

which seems like a pretty bad sign for the underlying value. What's
left is 90% speculation and 10% criminality.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 09:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Hands
...
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are
LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this
is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever.
It seems to me that one way of looking at this is that they are using
other people's money to bet that the BTC price will go up on average,
and then using the resulting profit to do a spot of mining as cover.
interestingly they just had to double the commission payouts from
$100 to $200. i was watching the pages describing the commissions:
one day they were $100, the next it was $200. i believe this is in
response to how drastically the exchange rate for BTC went up.

this is one of the indicators, to me, that they're legit. it's also
extremely clever of them, to link the commissions directly to a
currency that is anticipated to continuously fall. what's hilarious
is that the equipment shares is priced in the same currency, so *that*
falls in value relative to BTC as well.

basically as BTC goes up, the value of the commissions and the
relative cost of the equipment - which are in fixed USD amounts and
*converted* to BTC - go *DOWN*.

which is also an interesting salutory lesson to people that as crypto
currencies go up, the value of fiat currencies go DOWN. can you
imagine if this was BTC/EUR changing 1000%?
Post by Philip Hands
Whether they are paying people back from the speculation profit and/or
in the traditional ponzi manner from later investor's funds doesn't seem
to make much difference to me.
Most of the people involved in this to date would almost certainly have
been better off simply buying BTC at the start, and selling them some
time later on.
... which i've already determined to be risky and unethical. it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
Post by Philip Hands
Likewise, saying that you're only putting BTC in, and hence its only
pretend money (or some such) ignores the opportunity cost of no longer
being able to sell those BTC for cold hard cash.
... which i don't feel comfortable doing. as in, i don't feel
comfortable interfacing officially with one of the exchange sites.
i'm happy basically to keep a very clear division that i will only
cross reluctantly and very indirectly between BTC and fiat currencies.
there are good reasons for doing so.

also the risk-benefit analysis came up, for me, from *my* experience
and ability to assess these things (in the face of unknown and
unknowable information such as "how many people, how much have they
invested" etc.), as "take the opportunity and throw both oxygen tanks
and napalm on it"
Post by Philip Hands
So this looks to me like a ponzi built on a speculation bubble, which
might be a way of making the ponzi survive longer than it would do
otherwise, but if and when the BTC bubble bursts[1] investors are going
to discover that the people in charge have done a runner with the
remaining assets and that any balance still held within the scheme is
just gone.
Luke, given your repeated assertions about the importance of ethics I'm
astonished that you'd be willing to be anywhere near such a scheme.
the definition of an ethical act is:

* to increase truth, awareness, love or creativity (those being
synonyms for the same underlying principle) for one or more people
(including yourself) WITHOUT decreasing ANY of those same four
qualities FOR ANYONE.

that's a very very specific and flexible definition of an ethical act
that, for example, perfectly well permits people to go to war in
defense of their country, and many other things that others might,
without such a clear and flexible definition, consider "unethical".

it's also... really quite challenging to "unpack" that definition
(it's in effect a "4th normalised form" if you get the SQL database
analogy).

i'll be tracking the behaviour of this group closely to ensure that
it meets that ethical criteria. any sign of unethical acts on their
part - more to the point any sign that by MY actions and decisions *I*
am causing harm by leveraging this opportunity - and i'll drop them
instantly. i have to. my committment to that definition takes
absolute precedence.

l.

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Julie Marchant
2017-12-28 14:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Ugh, did it again. Sorry.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and
yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a
lick of sense, Luke. Money is just a representation of how many goods
and services you have produced for others. Economically, there is *no
difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone
Bitcoin for food.

You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been
mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't
actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of
EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining
(through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed
to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes,
it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you
might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's
funding EOMA68.)

Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
--
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https://onpon4.github.io

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-28 15:07:12 UTC
Permalink
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I
think that is something worth spending energy on.
Post by Julie Marchant
Ugh, did it again. Sorry.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and
yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a
lick of sense, Luke. Money is just a representation of how many goods
and services you have produced for others. Economically, there is *no
difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone
Bitcoin for food.
You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been
mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't
actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of
EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining
(through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed
to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes,
it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you
might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's
funding EOMA68.)
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 16:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Huntress
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I
think that is something worth spending energy on.
indeed... would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create*
an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly
peer-to-peer distributed, and so on?

look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two
alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the
right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it.

if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that
is available... oh and bitcoin. is that something we really really
want?

gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow.

l.

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-28 16:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity

The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid scheme
and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators of
this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making.

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Sam Huntress
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I
think that is something worth spending energy on.
indeed... would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create*
an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly
peer-to-peer distributed, and so on?
look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two
alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the
right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it.
if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that
is available... oh and bitcoin. is that something we really really
want?
gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 16:54:39 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity
The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid scheme
and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators of
this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making.
genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have
virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down
some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the
blockchain analysis can be done that would be great.

the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out
as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't
we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the
equipment in various data centres.

briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking
their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines,
keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal
electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally
free.

more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep.

l.

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Hrvoje Lasic
2017-12-28 17:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity
The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid
scheme
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators
of
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making.
genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have
virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down
some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the
blockchain analysis can be done that would be great.
when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is
well known fact.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out
as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't
we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the
equipment in various data centres.
briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking
their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines,
keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal
electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally
free.
more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep.
l.
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Sam Huntress
2017-12-28 18:48:20 UTC
Permalink
GNU Taler is a fundamentally different system than Bitcoin. Unless I
misunderstand the information on their website.

GNU Taler appears to be a third party; analogous to a credit card company
or a bank. GNU Taler could manage and secure your cash (or bitcoin) for you
and be trusted to ensure that transactions are carried out smoothly.

In contrast, Bitcoin is analogous to hard currency (Euro coins, US dollar
bills, gold, etc), and is something that can be managed for you by a
trusted third party.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity
The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid
scheme
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators
of
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making.
genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have
virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down
some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the
blockchain analysis can be done that would be great.
when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is
well known fact.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out
as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't
we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the
equipment in various data centres.
briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking
their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines,
keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal
electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally
free.
more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep.
l.
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Mike Henry
2017-12-28 20:07:24 UTC
Permalink
Luke,

I know you are a really smart guy. If this group has such a great
mining set up, why do they need people to join and give them money?
The math of this doesn't make any sense. They could use profits from
mining to buy more equipment, they shouldn't need people to give them
money, then have those people get more people to sign on. It is a
classic MLM scheme where the product is bitcoin instead of some other
junk. Jean really knows what they are talking about. I know you are in
a desperate situation with lots of pressure, but if it sounds too good
to be true it probably is.
Post by Sam Huntress
GNU Taler is a fundamentally different system than Bitcoin. Unless I
misunderstand the information on their website.
GNU Taler appears to be a third party; analogous to a credit card company
or a bank. GNU Taler could manage and secure your cash (or bitcoin) for you
and be trusted to ensure that transactions are carried out smoothly.
In contrast, Bitcoin is analogous to hard currency (Euro coins, US dollar
bills, gold, etc), and is something that can be managed for you by a
trusted third party.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity
The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid
scheme
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators
of
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making.
genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have
virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down
some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the
blockchain analysis can be done that would be great.
when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is
well known fact.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out
as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't
we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the
equipment in various data centres.
briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking
their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines,
keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal
electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally
free.
more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep.
l.
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Wes Frazier
2017-12-28 23:04:19 UTC
Permalink
I know you are in a desperate situation with lots of pressure, but if it sounds too good
to be true it probably is.
I mostly just lurk on this mailing list, im a backer on the crowdsupply
campaign. I am not an expert on bitcoin or any concurrency. I just
wanted to chime in and assert I would be happy to back another
crowdfunding campaign for additional funds to see this project succeed,
and would feel better about such a thing over this bitcoin mlm based plan.

- Wes

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 07:07:48 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is
well known fact.
i have a friend who signed up for them a while ago... it's not.
remember that there's a hell of a lot of reasons why various vested
power interests want to see these new ways of (literally) making money
be utterly discredited. however that he's actually receiving mining
payouts from genesis mining does *not* make it a worthwhile thing to
drop your money^H^H^H^H^Hbitcoin into. they take a fixed percentage,
there's *absolutely no way* to verify who they are, there's no public
listing of their pool stats... nothing. absolutely nothing by which
you can prove OR DISPROVE one way or the other if they are legitimate
OR indeed a scam.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-30 07:05:08 UTC
Permalink
rrrright, i've got enough information from the payouts and commissions
to be able to reverse-engineer their operation with a reasonable
degree of confidence.

key mistake: i initially *misinterpreted* the MLM commissions
structure as paying out $200/day *guaranteed*.

what they *actually* do is, for each person who also buys a share,
they distribute a percentage of that *upstream* to the previous
backers. from the mining generated, and taking e.g. AntMiner S9 as a
"baseline" i was able to calculate that the ratio of "equipment
purchased that's definitely yours" to "money that's put towards
rewarding people who encourage other people to buy equipment but also
covering operational costs etc. etc." is around 62:38 give-or-take
several percentage points... i'm really fuzzy on this maths stuff,
that was last night, i'm now coming up with 25:75.... *sigh* someone
please double-check this!!

the figures went like this:

* $3500 is a full share.
* daily mining payout is around $13/day @ current exchange rates and difficulty
* Antminer S9s cost around $2500 (if you can get them) and @ 13TH/s
earns about USD $26/day
* scale that up to $3500 and it's $37/day for an antminer-s9-scaled-up's-worth

so 37 + 13 = 50. 13 / 50 = a 26 : 74 ratio.

which seems to be awfully low, i must have made a mistake somewhere.

so this percentage (of what each person puts into equipment) which
goes up-tree in commission would explain how they can stay afloat [AND
NOT BE A PONZI SCHEME].

if someone can check the maths that would be great.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 13:53:11 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Julie Marchant
Ugh, did it again. Sorry.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and
yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a
lick of sense, Luke.
:) my understanding of money is different: i take the *intent* of
the person into consideration, and i am generous with money - when i
have it - to those people whose *intentions* i believe are worthwhile
encouraging.

so in the case of trading bitcoin, most of the *intentions* that
people are have are for the purposes of explotation. blatant,
outright insider trading and pump-and-dump tactics. there's *clubs*
you can join where this is carried out.

therefore, if you *trade* bitcoin, it's basically exploitation of
somebody else's misfortune. therefore, i cannot and will not do it.
Post by Julie Marchant
Money is just a representation of how many goods
and services you have produced for others.
that's one interpretation, and it's one that serves many people
extremely well. however... it misses something very very fundamental.
Post by Julie Marchant
Economically, there is *no
difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone
Bitcoin for food.
ok... would you deal with a warlord or a mass murderer, trading them
bitcoin for USD? would you give an embezzler bitcoin if they asked
for it saying that they wanted it to pay for food?
Post by Julie Marchant
You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been
mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy,
ok there's a few things here:

(1) the reports on which the calculations were based have been shown
to be flawed

(2) bitclub run most of their kit out of rekyavijk, iceland, where
they are currrently sinking geo-thermal vents to power turbines. also
cooling is *LITERALLY* free.

(3) there are instances of people coming up with extremely ingenious
plans (one guy is recycling - burning - used car tyres) which
otherwise would *never have been financially viable*

so not only are the reports based on the wrong info, but bitclub *is*
doing its best to reduce environmental impact,
Post by Julie Marchant
and it doesn't
actually produce anything in the end.
this is equally true of any currency. you can't eat it. the only
exception to that was cocoa beans, which the Mayans used as currency.
great if there was an economic bust as you could *literally* eat your
money.

other than that, to say "it doesn't actually produce anything" is to
fundamentally misunderstand the nature of money. money is
EMPOWERMENT. it is an ENABLER.
Post by Julie Marchant
Isn't one of the main features of
EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining
(through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed
to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy.
not at all: quite the opposite. what do you imagine that i will be
doing this? let's go back to Simon Sinek's Ted Talk, and ask "why how
what" rather than "what how why".

so let's ask the question: *why* do you think i am doing this? *why*
am i leveraging this abbbsolutely ennormous financial opportunity?

what would it empower me to do? maybe fund a truly ethical
peer-to-peer distributed crypto-currency that's truly eco-conscious
because it's *not* dependent on proof-of-work, perhaps?

maybe make an ultra-low-power processor that is designed and
optimised based around that very same crypto-currency?

maybe fund every software libre project that i've ever promised that
i would if i ever had the means to, over the past 20 years?

take the eco-conscious technological plans that i have to the next
level that they were *always intended to be*?

... or....

should i... *completely abandon* those plans, forget about them,
maybe think of them as a pipe dream, *waiting* for someone to go,
"uhhh that's all very well but you're never going to make it a
reality, not now, not ever"

should i leave our fate in the hands of google, microsoft, oracle,
intel, ARM, facebook, and twitta and that FUCKER elon musk who you can
TELL clearly, with all his hype and talk of going to Mars, you KNOW
he's given up on Humanity?

should i?

i'm asking you - seriously - should i ignore this opportunity and
everything it represents, with everything that you know about me and
the promises and committments that i have made, and leave matters in
the hands of those.... i don't even want to use any kinds of words to
describe how angry and disgusted i am with how irresponsible they
truly are, these... "leaders" of technology.
Post by Julie Marchant
(And yes,
it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you
might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's
funding EOMA68.)
yup. i have no problem with that.
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion.

ok, the answer's conditional.

(1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send
crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund.
they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you
don't need to read further, below.

(2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as
i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed
if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the
factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that
they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds
are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying
components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see
if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would
help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your
intention to *actively* do harm to the project.

so.

if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.

sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front
about these things.

l.

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Julie Marchant
2017-12-29 14:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send
crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund.
they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you
don't need to read further, below.
(2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as
i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed
if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the
factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that
they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds
are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying
components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see
if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would
help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your
intention to *actively* do harm to the project.
so.
if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.
sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front
about these things.
I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it
pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second?
--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io

Protect your emails with GnuPG:
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 15:23:35 UTC
Permalink
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crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Julie Marchant
I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it
pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second?
the first batch was the first crowd-funded campaign: august 2016.
after that, crowdsupply effectively turned the site into a "pre-order
shop". none of the money from this SECOND batch has left
crowdsupply's bank account.

for the first batch, $175k, $25k appx is held by crowdsupply because
they'll be handling world-wide shipping. $130k of the $175k went to
thinkpenguin. $60k of that $130k immediately went to the factory in
china. $25k is left in thinkpenguin's bank account, to deal with the
laptops when we get to it. $45k of the $60k is left in mike's bank
account in china and that is ENTIRELY taken up with components and
PCBs for the EOMA68-A20 2.7.5 and Microdesktop 1.7.

so if you're in the first batch there *is* nothing spare to refund
*to* anyone. hence the question is absolutely critical because
attempting to pull out money which doesn't exist and/or has been
allocated for some considerable time does a LOT of damage.

but, the 2nd batch? not a problem at all.

l.

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-29 15:00:55 UTC
Permalink
We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some
confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is.

In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense
(lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on
investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to
'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. This doesn't have to
just be cash payouts, the con (remember, short for the -confidence- they
are trying to steal from you) may include offices or turbines (or just
pictures of these things) to make everything seem more legitimate.

In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100%
traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets
all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private
key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets.

If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be
technically competent enough to make good investments.

If Bitclub will not provide this verification then they are most likely
lying to their investors.

Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that
whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you
to get back what you put in.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Julie Marchant
Ugh, did it again. Sorry.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and
yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a
lick of sense, Luke.
:) my understanding of money is different: i take the *intent* of
the person into consideration, and i am generous with money - when i
have it - to those people whose *intentions* i believe are worthwhile
encouraging.
so in the case of trading bitcoin, most of the *intentions* that
people are have are for the purposes of explotation. blatant,
outright insider trading and pump-and-dump tactics. there's *clubs*
you can join where this is carried out.
therefore, if you *trade* bitcoin, it's basically exploitation of
somebody else's misfortune. therefore, i cannot and will not do it.
Post by Julie Marchant
Money is just a representation of how many goods
and services you have produced for others.
that's one interpretation, and it's one that serves many people
extremely well. however... it misses something very very fundamental.
Post by Julie Marchant
Economically, there is *no
difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone
Bitcoin for food.
ok... would you deal with a warlord or a mass murderer, trading them
bitcoin for USD? would you give an embezzler bitcoin if they asked
for it saying that they wanted it to pay for food?
Post by Julie Marchant
You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been
mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy,
(1) the reports on which the calculations were based have been shown
to be flawed
(2) bitclub run most of their kit out of rekyavijk, iceland, where
they are currrently sinking geo-thermal vents to power turbines. also
cooling is *LITERALLY* free.
(3) there are instances of people coming up with extremely ingenious
plans (one guy is recycling - burning - used car tyres) which
otherwise would *never have been financially viable*
so not only are the reports based on the wrong info, but bitclub *is*
doing its best to reduce environmental impact,
Post by Julie Marchant
and it doesn't
actually produce anything in the end.
this is equally true of any currency. you can't eat it. the only
exception to that was cocoa beans, which the Mayans used as currency.
great if there was an economic bust as you could *literally* eat your
money.
other than that, to say "it doesn't actually produce anything" is to
fundamentally misunderstand the nature of money. money is
EMPOWERMENT. it is an ENABLER.
Post by Julie Marchant
Isn't one of the main features of
EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining
(through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed
to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy.
not at all: quite the opposite. what do you imagine that i will be
doing this? let's go back to Simon Sinek's Ted Talk, and ask "why how
what" rather than "what how why".
so let's ask the question: *why* do you think i am doing this? *why*
am i leveraging this abbbsolutely ennormous financial opportunity?
what would it empower me to do? maybe fund a truly ethical
peer-to-peer distributed crypto-currency that's truly eco-conscious
because it's *not* dependent on proof-of-work, perhaps?
maybe make an ultra-low-power processor that is designed and
optimised based around that very same crypto-currency?
maybe fund every software libre project that i've ever promised that
i would if i ever had the means to, over the past 20 years?
take the eco-conscious technological plans that i have to the next
level that they were *always intended to be*?
... or....
should i... *completely abandon* those plans, forget about them,
maybe think of them as a pipe dream, *waiting* for someone to go,
"uhhh that's all very well but you're never going to make it a
reality, not now, not ever"
should i leave our fate in the hands of google, microsoft, oracle,
intel, ARM, facebook, and twitta and that FUCKER elon musk who you can
TELL clearly, with all his hype and talk of going to Mars, you KNOW
he's given up on Humanity?
should i?
i'm asking you - seriously - should i ignore this opportunity and
everything it represents, with everything that you know about me and
the promises and committments that i have made, and leave matters in
the hands of those.... i don't even want to use any kinds of words to
describe how angry and disgusted i am with how irresponsible they
truly are, these... "leaders" of technology.
Post by Julie Marchant
(And yes,
it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you
might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's
funding EOMA68.)
yup. i have no problem with that.
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion.
ok, the answer's conditional.
(1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send
crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund.
they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you
don't need to read further, below.
(2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as
i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed
if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the
factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that
they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds
are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying
components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see
if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would
help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your
intention to *actively* do harm to the project.
so.
if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.
sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front
about these things.
l.
_______________________________________________
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 15:34:20 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Sam Huntress
We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some
confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is.
In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense
(lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on
investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to
'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'.
... down the tree until it collapses, yes.

apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was
cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times
larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so
consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the
largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history?

in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude
of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007
US Fed Res ponzi scheme)
Post by Sam Huntress
In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100%
traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets
all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private
key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets.
you mean, starting e.g. from here:
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
and here:
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
Post by Sam Huntress
If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be
technically competent enough to make good investments.
Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that
whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you
to get back what you put in.
sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm
looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for
to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid
for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can
be paid for - outright.

i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and
*i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is
sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some
absolutely amazing...

... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS ....

... projects.

including REPLACING bitcoin.

l.

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-29 16:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
Yes, exactly.

The blocks they are mining are being awarded to
https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4
And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So
Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in.

As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent
Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary.

I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it
just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that
seem 'too-good-to-be-true'

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Sam Huntress
We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some
confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is.
In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false
pretense
Post by Sam Huntress
(lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on
investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to
'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'.
... down the tree until it collapses, yes.
apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was
cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times
larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so
consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the
largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history?
in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude
of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007
US Fed Res ponzi scheme)
Post by Sam Huntress
In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100%
traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which
wallets
Post by Sam Huntress
all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard
public/private
Post by Sam Huntress
key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets.
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
Post by Sam Huntress
If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be
technically competent enough to make good investments.
Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope
that
Post by Sam Huntress
whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for
you
Post by Sam Huntress
to get back what you put in.
sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm
looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for
to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid
for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can
be paid for - outright.
i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and
*i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is
sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some
absolutely amazing...
... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS ....
... projects.
including REPLACING bitcoin.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 16:21:15 UTC
Permalink
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crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Sam Huntress
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
Yes, exactly.
The blocks they are mining are being awarded to
https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4
And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So
Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in.
cool. can you tell if it matches with the hash rate on the pool?
Post by Sam Huntress
As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent
Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary.
i can now confirm that they're paying out both mining and also
commission. the first lot was only USD $14 which is extraordinarily
low... but it's the first day and they *might* be taking the time of
day when i signed up into account.
Post by Sam Huntress
I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it
just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that
seem 'too-good-to-be-true'
it actually took me a while - i just didn't mention it until the 30
days on commissioning equipment was nearly up. also i'm unusual in
both understanding MLMs (good and bad) *and* bitcoin mining.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 16:14:55 UTC
Permalink
oh! alexander. yeah. you! i'm happy to pay your membership, you've
been extraordinarily helpful.... and persistent :)

l.
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Alexander Ross
After recently learning how bitcoin network fees and shot up to £70 min!
I asked for alts and was recommended to use dash.
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20171227.034339.c3c3053f.en.html
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Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
2017-12-30 03:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
[...]
Post by Julie Marchant
Ugh, did it again. Sorry.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
it's
too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has
recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is
*completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually*
involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange
rates" or the trading of currencies, at all.
So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and
yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a
lick of sense, Luke.
+1 to Julie, and to the other people who expressed doubts about the
wisdom to go down this path.

If anything, the whole coin-mining rush and the resources devoted to it
(not only computational, also human resources and the amount of
press/attention that is given to it) compared to many of the other world
problems, look to me anything but sensible, and much less
"eco-conscious" or "ethical".

So I am not going to start arguing about this, I hope to not reply to
any other email in the thread, but just to express that I also feel that
this new adventure is quite far from the general idea of the EOMA (which
I backed as part of the campaign and also a few years before that), and
the campaign, which I contributed to echo in many places while it ran,
which now I kind of regret after the latest developments.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
[...]
i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion.
ok, the answer's conditional.
(1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send
crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund.
they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you
don't need to read further, below.
(2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as
i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed
if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the
factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that
they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds
are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying
components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see
if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would
help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your
intention to *actively* do harm to the project.
I find that the language that you use is completely inappropriate to
treat backers of the idea.

Julie and others, including me, *do not actively intend to harm the EOMA
project*. They, or we, just don't feel comfortable with the turn of the
story that you are going to make, or just made, so they lost confidence
that it's a project worth backing. At most we want to *actively* remove
us from the equation, not *actively* harm EOMA.

It's you who is *actively* changing the rules and making EOMA
conditional on coin-mining operations rather than rethink the project
and deliver less than promised, or do it in a different way, or run
another campaign.

These suggestions were given by people in this thread, perhaps not the
best, perhaps not enough, but that's what many people in the "EOMA
community" expressed. If you disregard these opinions, well, it's you
who is going to be the only actor *actively* harming or *boosting* the
project, whatever end result is going to be.

It's maybe nobody's fault that things went this way, but in any case,
it's not Julie's fault in any way what happend so far and that the money
is insufficient now, so treating backers in this appalling way is not
OK.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.
If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a
coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I
don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a
refund.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front
about these things.
Ditto.
--
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-30 08:20:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
+1 to Julie, and to the other people who expressed doubts about the
wisdom to go down this path.
the decision was already made. and couldn't really be properly
assessed without having the information of someone *who* had made the
decision to invest. i've now _got_ that information and it's nowhere
near as good an opportunity as i initially thought... but i have
enough to know that it is NOT a ponzi scheme.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
If anything, the whole coin-mining rush and the resources devoted to it
(not only computational, also human resources and the amount of
press/attention that is given to it) compared to many of the other world
problems, look to me anything but sensible, and much less
"eco-conscious" or "ethical".
dude: it's the first time in human history where third parties are
neither required for contracts to be ATOMICALLY binding. i'm not sure
if you grasp the full significance of that.

prior to blockchain and hashgraph and so on the only way to guarantee
that a contract was honoured is to (a) trust each party in the
contract and (b) if there is a dispute trust a THIRD PARTY.

entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that
and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY
DECENTRALISED.

i... i can't... i can't emphasise enough how mind-bogglingly
significant that truly is for the whole of humanity.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
So I am not going to start arguing about this, I hope to not reply to
any other email in the thread, but just to express that I also feel that
this new adventure is quite far from the general idea of the EOMA (which
I backed as part of the campaign and also a few years before that), and
the campaign, which I contributed to echo in many places while it ran,
which now I kind of regret after the latest developments.
there is nothing that i can say here. as in, i am not permitted,
under my own ethical operating framework, to say anything that would
interfere with your right to make assessments and conclusions for
yourself.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as
i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed
if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the
factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that
they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds
are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying
components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see
if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would
help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your
intention to *actively* do harm to the project.
I find that the language that you use is completely inappropriate to
treat backers of the idea.
ok, let's look first at the facts, then we go over them, then you can
let me know how i *should* have presented it, so that i can learn how
to make it clear.

but in doing so i am going to ask you one very simple thing: that you
accept the facts AS the facts, ok?

the facts are that removing money from the first batch *actively*
does harm. i'll go over them again below.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Julie and others, including me, *do not actively intend to harm the EOMA
project*. They, or we, just don't feel comfortable with the turn of the
story that you are going to make, or just made, so they lost confidence
that it's a project worth backing. At most we want to *actively* remove
us from the equation, not *actively* harm EOMA.
unfortunately, it does *active* harm if the money from the first
batch is removed. i have made this clear a number of times.

* the amount of money available is only sufficient to pay components,
shipping etc. (i.e. not living expenses)
* therefore if an amount is SUBTRACTED from that total, it must,
logically, mean that the total number of units manufactured is REDUCED
* in many cases i have ALREADY PURCHASED COMPONENTS. 1500 JAE DC3
connectors. 2000 PCMCIA cases. 2000 PCMCIA sockets
* if i talk to the factory and say "i'm sorry, the numbers to be
manufactured are now 800 not 1000" their reaction will be as follows:

(1) they will never trust me to place an order with them ever again
(2) as a knock-on effect all the contracts that THEY have arranged
will also have to be re-negotiated (to LOWER values)
(3) the factory's reputation with those suppliers will be
IRREPARABLY HARMED as a result
(4) the workers on the factory's assembly line will also be harmed.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
It's you who is *actively* changing the rules
of course! i'll change anything that's needed - without sacrificing
any of the underlying ethical principles - trying and testing out
absolutely anything that stands a chance of working towards the goal.

that's *how* you succeed.

again, can i refer to Simon Sinek's talk and invite you to go back,
fundamentally, to the WHY.

please answer for me: WHY do you think am i doing what i am doing?

i do mean, actually answer that question as best you can. don't
treat it as "rhetorical" in any way.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
and making EOMA
conditional on coin-mining operations rather than rethink the project
and deliver less than promised, or do it in a different way, or run
another campaign.
i have been talking in ... have you been *reading* the updates at all
over the past year??? fer fuck's sake manuel i've been planning
*multiple* avenues here! *including* already delivering less!
*including* planning multiple campaigns!
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
These suggestions were given by people in this thread, perhaps not the
best, perhaps not enough, but that's what many people in the "EOMA
community" expressed. If you disregard these opinions, well, it's you
who is going to be the only actor *actively* harming or *boosting* the
project, whatever end result is going to be.
pretty much every single update, i clearly state, "this project
succeeds or fails based on your feedback and support". if you come
back to the "WHY" as Simon Sinek advises that everyone first and
foremost do, and you BELIEVE in that "WHY", then it is ALL our
responsibility to keep an eye on the project and to give feedback.

i think you are losing sight of that... and also forgetting that the
BTC i mined over 5 years ago - using MY personal money WELL before
this Crowdfunding campaign started - was put in 32 days ago.
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
It's maybe nobody's fault that things went this way, but in any case,
it's not Julie's fault in any way what happend so far and that the money
is insufficient now, so treating backers in this appalling way is not
OK.
tell me: what is "appalling" about describing - truthfully - the
direct consequences of removing money from the first batch?
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.
If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a
coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I
don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a
refund.
i'm not quotes linking EOMA to the success of a coin mining operation
quotes jaezuss, manuel, where did you get the impression that i'm that
fucking stupid _come_ on man.

i *don't have* full-time jobs like everyone else in the techie field,
i'm too much of a threat to companies for them to employ me. and, not
to mention, there's the fact that if i *have* a full-time job i CAN'T
FOCUS ON THIS TASK.

wake up for goodness sake, people. i've been trying for EIGHTEEN
YEARS to gain full financial independence so that i can focus a
hundred percent on ethical business and people KEEP FUCKING TAKING
ADVANTAGE OF MY GENEROSITY.

hearing how jeremy allison managed to get his *brother* in on that VA
Linux IPO when he'd *ASSUMED* that the founders would have contacted
me... the list of times where people have either blatantly exploited
my work for significant personal financial gain or blatant outright
embezzled it in one case... i won't go into details because it would
shock you too much.

so i'm going to ask you a very, very direct question: do you want me
to give up? do you want me to quit? go back to the UK and get some
fucking stupid job in walmart or tesco's? because i can do that if
you prefer.

or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set?
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front
about these things.
Ditto.
_great_! genuinely and absolutely honestly _great_. that way,
misunderstandings get cleared up.

l.

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zap
2017-12-30 09:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm
to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly
answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that
would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make
a fully-informed assessment.
If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a
coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I
don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a
refund.
i'm not quotes linking EOMA to the success of a coin mining operation
quotes jaezuss, manuel, where did you get the impression that i'm that
fucking stupid _come_ on man.
i *don't have* full-time jobs like everyone else in the techie field,
i'm too much of a threat to companies for them to employ me. and, not
to mention, there's the fact that if i *have* a full-time job i CAN'T
FOCUS ON THIS TASK.
wake up for goodness sake, people. i've been trying for EIGHTEEN
YEARS to gain full financial independence so that i can focus a
hundred percent on ethical business and people KEEP FUCKING TAKING
ADVANTAGE OF MY GENEROSITY.
Hey Luke, I know this may sound hard for you, but don't let that get you
down.  You are doing a good service by making the eoma68 standard and
even more so putting actions behind your words. Most people don't even
try to walk the walk. I am glad you are doing your best to try.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
hearing how jeremy allison managed to get his *brother* in on that VA
Linux IPO when he'd *ASSUMED* that the founders would have contacted
me... the list of times where people have either blatantly exploited
my work for significant personal financial gain or blatant outright
embezzled it in one case... i won't go into details because it would
shock you too much.
so i'm going to ask you a very, very direct question: do you want me
to give up? do you want me to quit? go back to the UK and get some
fucking stupid job in walmart or tesco's? because i can do that if
you prefer.
or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set?
Keep on trying to succeed man, I wish you the best Luke.  Truly, I thank
you from the bottom of my heart. 

Don't let life get you down. :)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-30 09:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Hey Luke, I know this may sound hard for you, but don't let that get you
down.
yehh, i realised a long time ago it would just cause too much
distress to do that.
Post by zap
You are doing a good service by making the eoma68 standard and
even more so putting actions behind your words. Most people don't even
try to walk the walk. I am glad you are doing your best to try.
thx zap.
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set?
Keep on trying to succeed man, I wish you the best Luke.
i will... as long as it useful to do so. i know not to pursue a goal
that's no longer actually relevant, no matter how long you've been at
it :)
Post by zap
Truly, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
that's really appreciated.
Post by zap
Don't let life get you down. :)
:)

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Jonathan Frederickson
2017-12-31 05:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
dude: it's the first time in human history where third parties are
neither required for contracts to be ATOMICALLY binding. i'm not sure
if you grasp the full significance of that.
prior to blockchain and hashgraph and so on the only way to guarantee
that a contract was honoured is to (a) trust each party in the
contract and (b) if there is a dispute trust a THIRD PARTY.
entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that
and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY
DECENTRALISED.
Well, sort of. The actual exchange of currency doesn't involve a third
party, and in the case of e.g. Ethereum there's a lot of interesting
stuff you can do within the network. But for most real-world contracts
you need information from outside the network about whether one party
actually fulfilled its obligations, and then you're back to the messy
realities of human trust.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 05:39:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Jonathan Frederickson
Post by Jonathan Frederickson
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that
and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY
DECENTRALISED.
Well, sort of. The actual exchange of currency doesn't involve a third
party, and in the case of e.g. Ethereum there's a lot of interesting
stuff you can do within the network. But for most real-world contracts
you need information from outside the network about whether one party
actually fulfilled its obligations, and then you're back to the messy
realities of human trust.
eeexactly.

whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical
inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty.

i may have assumed above that you would realise the significance of
what an an "atomic transaction" means in relation to contracts. it
means that a public declaration of a contract becomes atomic -
indivisible - i.e. absolute and inviolate.... WITH NO THIRD PARTY AND
REQUIRING NO THIRD PARTY DISPUTE ARBITRATION.

to a mathematically cryptographical level the contract IS absolute
and inviolate.

for LITERALLY the first time in human history.

is that clear? it means we - humanity - can be free to make our own
contracts with other people, at our *own* responsibility, not that of
a government or a judge or a lawyer or *anyone* else but the person
with whom we are dealing. directly.

the number of people who truly grasp the significance of that is...
honestly... really quite small.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 05:41:24 UTC
Permalink
https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/12/30/1949248/could-we-reduce-data-breaches-with-better-open-source-funding#comments

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 05:41:38 UTC
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https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/12/30/1715210/blockchain-brings-business-boom-to-ibm-oracle-and-microsoft#comments

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Jonathan Frederickson
2017-12-31 06:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical
inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty.
Sure, assuming every aspect of that contract can be expressed on the
blockchain. Financial transactions with cryptocurrencies can be (I'll
sell you this ERC20 token for this much ETH, if and only if enough
people pledge), but I'm still skeptical that such contracts will be
very useful outside of a few narrowly defined niches.

A smart contract for preordering a new device, for example, has no
idea whether the devices have been shipped, whether they were lost in
transit, etc. The moment you involve humans (which is almost always
necessary), you're back to needing dispute arbitration. A
mathematically inviolable contract does you little good when a key
part of the contract as seen by one of the parties (i.e. actually
receiving the thing) can't be expressed as part of it.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 07:27:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Frederickson
Post by Jonathan Frederickson
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical
inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty.
Sure, assuming every aspect of that contract can be expressed on the
blockchain. Financial transactions with cryptocurrencies can be (I'll
sell you this ERC20 token for this much ETH, if and only if enough
people pledge), but I'm still skeptical that such contracts will be
very useful outside of a few narrowly defined niches.
it's early days yet. cryptokitties is an actual first real-world
effort to create something that isn't "trading or mining or
speculation". this video is both extremely funny, informative and
insightful at the same time:


Post by Jonathan Frederickson
A smart contract for preordering a new device, for example, has no
idea whether the devices have been shipped, whether they were lost in
transit, etc. The moment you involve humans (which is almost always
necessary), you're back to needing dispute arbitration. A
mathematically inviolable contract does you little good when a key
part of the contract as seen by one of the parties (i.e. actually
receiving the thing) can't be expressed as part of it.
yehyeh. but... let's think it through. there's a couple of scenarios

(1) one of the uses is: insurance. insurance companies are now
investigating blockchain for declaring and underwriting insurance.
what do you think would happen if an *insurance* company decided,
affer making a publicly declared inviolate contract with someone, "oh
we don't want to actually pay out, it's just a mathematical note, we
didn't really actually truly mean it"?

the consequences of disregarding a [physical] violation /
dishonouring of a publicly-notarised atomic contract is actually much
more serious than it first seems.

(2) numerically-expressible contracts such as "subtract this number
and add it to this other number"

this is basically the whole basis of crypto-currencies (except
ethereum). the transaction is done and inviolate and there *is* no
backing out. the "number" is transferred (added) to your "balance
sheet", and that "balance sheet" propagates forward within the
network.

the number [the "value" of the crypto-currency] *has forward
continuity*. further atomic transactions empower further atomic
transactions empower further atomic transactions.... you never
*actually* escape from the inviolate nature of the
atomic-contract-public-ledger-system.

thus, for *this* scenario, the objection that "human dispute
arbitration" is needed simply does not apply.

(3) computationally-expressible contracts such as ethereum

this is where it gets *really* interesting as e.g. cryptokitties
demonstrates (which, btw, has caused a major meltdown of ethereum as
it's sucking up THIRTY PERCENT of the ENTIRE ethereum network
resources).

whilst you _can_ actually replicate the contract system
(cryptokitties unfortunately have not published the FULL genetic
algorithm / contract) it is clear that the cryptokitties site is - as
things stand - entirely set up to be the "enabler". it is NOT however
the "arbitrator". the ETHEREUM NETWORK is the "arbitrator and prover
that you bought, sold or birthed a kittie".

it is just unfortunate that the relevant algorithms have not been
made public so it is not possible to create your own kitties... you
*can* i believe however independently *buy and sell* them using a
replica of the buy and sell algorithms... i'd like to see someone do
that.

regardless: this is just another specialisation and extension of the
extreme degenerate case, "subtract this number and add it to this
other number", such that *as long as* you remain *within* the
cryptokitties "system", All Is Well.


(4) static contract / document storage including describing
arbitration procedures (potentially in computational form)

this is a proposed "hybrid" system which would be REALLY interesting,
and is a general form of (1) and (3) that i've been thinking about for
some time.



so where there is an actual cross-over into the real world, it's the
ethereum-style (computation style) contracts that get particularly
interesting, and even more so when you have machine-readable documents
(think "Microsoft Access Forms"). in effect, this moves our
dependence on individual computers over to DISTRIBUTED networks,
exactly as the microsoft millenium research group envisaged about 20
years ago and used DCOM as the basis to do it.

so overall i believe you're missing the fact that it's only because
*right now* we still use "individual" computers (or MIS-place our
trust in other PEOPLE's computers), but imagine what would happen if
ethereum's computation system BECAME THE DEFAULT FOR ALL COMPUTING
ALGORITHM EXECUTION WORLD-WIDE OVERNIGHT.


that we *haven't* moved to that model - world-wide - is the reason why
i believe that what you say, "we need to fall back on human-powered
dispute arbitration" is true... *at the moment*.

l.

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Ricardo Wurmus
2017-12-31 10:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Luke,
Post by Julie Marchant
You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been
mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't
actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of
EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining
(through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed
to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes,
it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you
might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's
funding EOMA68.)
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who
oppose Bitcoin.

Whatever perceived advantages Bitcoin may seem to provide, I oppose it
for a number of reasons, and I’d be very unhappy and disappointed if you
went along with this plan.

(There’s no need to insult us by insisting that we simply don’t get the
advantages of Bitcoin.)

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net



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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 10:17:40 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Luke,
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who
oppose Bitcoin.
ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too
late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin
mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER
to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no
longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term
investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible
projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity.

so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be
disregarded.

l.

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zap
2017-12-31 20:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Luke,
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who
oppose Bitcoin.
ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too
late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin
mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER
to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no
longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term
investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible
projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity.
so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be
disregarded.
I must admit, I would not trust bitcoin either, but if you think its a
good idea to use, that's your prerogative. I just think you should use
liberapay for the majority of your donations.  and avoid bitcoin when
possible. 

But since you have already have an account, I just ask you to be
careful. It may not be very stable. 
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 23:37:46 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Luke,
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who
oppose Bitcoin.
ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too
late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin
mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER
to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no
longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term
investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible
projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity.
so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be
disregarded.
I must admit, I would not trust bitcoin either, but if you think its a
good idea to use, that's your prerogative. I just think you should use
liberapay for the majority of your donations. and avoid bitcoin when
possible.
the other difference here is - was (before i had enough information
to be able to ascertain that it was not feasible to do so):

* when i believed that bitclub was a high-exponential curve payout
*I* intended *TO FUND* software libre projects with it

* now that i *KNOW* that bitclub is a LONG TERM investment, i am back
- once again - to being DEPENDENT on donations and sponsorship and,
once a fucking gain getting money from contract work and/or having to
consider enslavement i mean employment which i know that people will
say "you're wasting your time, you're a threat to our jobs".

door number one: financially independent and able to fund all
projects i ever wanted to fund

door number two: not financially independent and back to having to
listen to people telling me i'm being a fucking idiot and incapable of
making decisions.

l.

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Chuck Card via arm-netbook
2018-01-01 07:58:42 UTC
Permalink
...i am back
- once again - to being DEPENDENT on donations and sponsorship and,
once a fucking gain getting money from contract work and/or having to
consider enslavement i mean employment which i know that people will
say "you're wasting your time, you're a threat to our jobs".
Hi Luke,
I backed this project because I feel what you are doing is extraordinary.I want to provide some additional funding, but I rather not open another
account. Will paypal work for you?

As Lee Camp would say "Keep fighting"

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:39 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net> wrote:


---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Luke,
Post by Julie Marchant
Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an
option if you go through with this?
I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who
oppose Bitcoin.
  ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant.  it's too
late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin
mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER
to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no
longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term
investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible
projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity.
  so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be
disregarded.
I must admit, I would not trust bitcoin either, but if you think its a
good idea to use, that's your prerogative. I just think you should use
liberapay for the majority of your donations.  and avoid bitcoin when
possible.
the other difference here is - was (before i had enough information
to be able to ascertain that it was not feasible to do so):

* when i believed that bitclub was a high-exponential curve payout
*I* intended *TO FUND* software libre projects with it

* now that i *KNOW* that bitclub is a LONG TERM investment, i am back
- once again - to being DEPENDENT on donations and sponsorship and,
once a fucking gain getting money from contract work and/or having to
consider enslavement i mean employment which i know that people will
say "you're wasting your time, you're a threat to our jobs".

door number one: financially independent and able to fund all
projects i ever wanted to fund

door number two: not financially independent and back to having to
listen to people telling me i'm being a fucking idiot and incapable of
making decisions.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-01 09:08:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 7:58 AM, Chuck Card via arm-netbook
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Luke,
I backed this project because I feel what you are doing is extraordinary.
thanks chuck.
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
I want to provide some additional funding, but I rather not open another
account. Will paypal work for you?
that would be perfect - it'll need to be to my partner marie's paypal
account? here's a convenient link:

http://paypal.me/OrangeMarie

marie says:

"The account is registered in the UK. Pounds are preferred.
When they click on the link, They should see my name...Marie Raymond
and a picture of yarn balls and a crochet hook. And Newton Stewart
as the location."
Post by Ricardo Wurmus
As Lee Camp would say "Keep fighting"
:)

i received from someone a really inspiring and thoughtful message,
i've received permission to anonymously put it into an update. mostly
as a reminder to myself.

thx chuck.

l.

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Pablo Rath
2018-01-01 14:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 7:58 AM, Chuck Card via arm-netbook
Post by Chuck Card via arm-netbook
I want to provide some additional funding, but I rather not open another
account. Will paypal work for you?
that would be perfect - it'll need to be to my partner marie's paypal
http://paypal.me/OrangeMarie
I understand everyone who does not want to open another account.
I did a quick check and it appears that paypals fees can be
substantially higher than those of liberapay. Paypals fees seems to depend if you
pay right out of your paypal balance or from credit card via paypal and
if it is U.S. domestic (which it is not as the paypal account of lukes
partner marie is from the UK) or international.

Liberapays fees seem especially reasonable if you have a bank account in
the European Union

kind regards
Pablo

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Julie Marchant
2017-12-27 16:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Sent this from the wrong email address. Please excuse the duplicate
email. Luke: if the other email is in the moderation queue, feel free to
just reject it, since it doesn't add anything beyond this version.
Post by Luca Saiu
http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/
I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the
investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and
likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It
would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck
in a Ponzi.
Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining,
exist right now. This is not going to end well.
I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the
funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind
of "multi-level marketing", which is almost certainly going to be a
financial loss to you.

The idea of "multi-level marketing" can be explained in a chart. The
"0"s represent people buying into it, with the one at the top being the
one who started it. Tell me, what does this look like?

0
000
00000
0000000
000000000
00000000000
0000000000000
000000000000000
00000000000000000
0000000000000000000
000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000

If you need money to survive, and you can't find any contracts for
well-paying work that you could do alongside EOMA68, then the best
thing to do is either:

1. Do whatever you can with the remaining funds to do the closest you
can to fulfilling your promises. This may force you to make cuts. For
example, perhaps you might have to scrap the laptop design entirely and
only deliver cards and micro-desktops, then fund the laptop design
separately later. Or, perhaps you will have to just abandon delivering
on the printed-for-you laptops, and everyone would have to print the
laptops on their own. This is the solution I would prefer; it would be a
bummer to not have everything you sought out for, but at least we would
have *something*. A starting point. It's better than nothing.

2. Put the project on hold to get a well-paying, actual job and build up
enough savings to continue as originally planned at a later date.

3. First do (1), then do (2) when you run out of funds.

Note: You said in a later email that it's just Bitcoin you already had
you're "investing" into this, but that's rather splitting hairs. You
said you have 0.65 BTC; that's currently worth almost $10,000. That's a
*massive* financial loss you're looking at there. If you have no use for
the BTC and haven't been touching it, convert it to real currency and
put it in your bank. Don't go throwing it at one of these schemes.
--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io

Protect your emails with GnuPG:
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-27 17:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie Marchant
Post by Luca Saiu
Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining,
exist right now. This is not going to end well.
I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the
funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind
My understanding of bitcoin is that you can 'check the ledger' to see the entire history of every bitcoin including the block it was mined from and the key it was awarded to.

Is it not possible for this mining operation to prove they own these keys and show that all BTC they distribute to the pool came from blocks the pool mined?
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 07:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Huntress
My understanding of bitcoin is that you can 'check the ledger' to see the entire history of every bitcoin including the block it was mined from and the key it was awarded to.
Is it not possible for this mining operation to prove they own these keys and show that all BTC they distribute to the pool came from blocks the pool mined?
if people published their private wallet addresses then yes. it
turns out that there are a number of people online who do videos
showing their MLM web front-ends. if some of those people
*accidentally* or perhaps even on purpose show their private wallet
address then yes you could link through to them.

it would be a *lot* of laborious work, going through.... hundreds of
hours of youtube video footage.

l.

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Jean Flamelle
2017-12-28 08:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Bitcoin is hyper-deflated due to over speculation.

With 16.7 million bitcoin across 21 million wallets lets say averaging
1.2 wallets per person meaning very roughly ~17.5 million wallets
within a deviation of that statistic probably close to +/- 2.5
million, leaves between 1.114 btc and 0.835 btc per person. For
comparison: 1.55 trillion usd across 326 million citizens ( generously
disregarding the petro-dollar attribute ), leaves about 4.7 thousand
usd per citizen. If every bitcoin wallet owner considered spent
bitcoin exclusively and with the same purchasing power as the average
us citizen and with the same habits, the tangible value of between
1.114 and 0.835 btc would be approximately 4.7 thousand usd. None of
this is the current economic reality though, as a very miniscule
percentage of wallet owners actually survive by spending bitcoin.
Additionally the petro-dollar trait increases the population which
owns primarily usd significantly about the us population, which would
increase its value and thereby decrease bitcoin's relative tangible
value. So this valuation is very generous in favor of bitcoin, to say
the least.

Many of the transactions done in bitcoin are black market, which is
showing increasing demand for switching to Monero ( a currency which
launders as a part of the mining operation at a high risk of losing
portions to malicious attackers ). This switch may help bitcoin with
legitimacy issues, but also may not if both currencies share
popularity. Either way so long as some interest in Monero exists, that
is a cut in value.

Many of the detractors uninterested in bitcoin's effect on crime, will
argue the ecological effect of crypto-currency mining procedures
through massive electrical requirement. Most of these detractors may
be satisfied once Ethereum implements the first large scale
proof-of-stake algorithm which requires only execution of the
transaction and staking one's own currency on the accuracy thereof.
The appeal of creating entire organizations with contracts on the
platform, Ethereum has a non-trivial possibility of becoming
independent of trade outside its marketplace ( a thing countries
strive for ). This depends on the security of auditing contract code
as well as fulfilling the promise to actually release a proof of stake
protocol. If those two conditions are met, there would then be an
argument for bitcoin becoming considered obsolete. However it is also
possible many will remain unconfortable with the principle of weighing
one's influence on consensus as proportional to how much currency they
are willing to gamble on that influence, and will prefer bitcoin's
most efficient hardware approach as supporting cryptographic research
indirectly.

All in all, if you purchase bitcoin at today's market price in usd,
you are making the bet that bitcoin's base will fully convert there
finances to bitcoin and the number of those people will increase by a
magnitude of 3 before selling or that the consensus among speculators
will change to make bets that it will increase above a magnitude of 3
before you sell.

All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious
mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by
participating.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 09:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean Flamelle
All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious
mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by
participating.
thank you, jean, for a really informative and insightful discourse.
your arguments are precisely why i will not participate in
crypto-currency trading.

l.

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Sam Huntress
2017-12-28 14:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if people published their private wallet addresses then yes.
No. The entire point of public/private key pairs is that you can prove you
own the pair without revealing the private key.
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/58792/proof-of-address-ownership

We can use the bitcoin ledger (blockchain) to see what address every mining
reward went to. This mining pool needs to prove they own one or more of
those addresses in order to be trusted. They do this by privately signing
some arbitrary challenge using the private key associated with the public
key to which the mining reward was assigned. That public key (that we know
from looking at the blockchain owns the BTC awarded through mining) is then
used to confirm the signature thus confirming that the mining pool does
indeed own that key pair and therefor did actually receive the BTC for
mining that block.

We can then look at the BTC<->USD exchange rates and see if the payouts
from this mining pool are within reason.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Jean Flamelle
All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious
mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by
participating.
thank you, jean, for a really informative and insightful discourse.
your arguments are precisely why i will not participate in
crypto-currency trading.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 14:54:31 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Sam Huntress
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
if people published their private wallet addresses then yes.
No. The entire point of public/private key pairs is that you can prove you
own the pair without revealing the private key.
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/58792/proof-of-address-ownership
sorry: i meant, everyone has a private wallet into which they're
receiving bitcoin. the public key of that wallet is put into their
management console web front-end.
Post by Sam Huntress
We can use the bitcoin ledger (blockchain) to see what address every mining
reward went to. This mining pool needs to prove they own one or more of
those addresses in order to be trusted. They do this by privately signing
some arbitrary challenge using the private key associated with the public
key to which the mining reward was assigned. That public key (that we know
from looking at the blockchain owns the BTC awarded through mining) is then
used to confirm the signature thus confirming that the mining pool does
indeed own that key pair and therefor did actually receive the BTC for
mining that block.
ok so... does this assume that we can find out what the public key of
people's "receive" wallets actually are? here's one (mine):

19trK4AVnCC1YHdJfgWWfpZ9c2uLociNjQ

so it should be possible to do a proof-of-concept... ahh... except
i'm not planning to actually take any BTC out in the immediate
future... ok i could transfer *something* out, like $10 or something.

getting hold of anyone else's public-key for their wallets means
doing a *lot* of trawling of youtube and/or looking online for
screenshots that people might have accidentally published via the
various "hey this is real sign up under me" jobbie videos.
Post by Sam Huntress
We can then look at the BTC<->USD exchange rates and see if the payouts
from this mining pool are within reason.
i also found a page that shows how many "Founders" there are. a
"Founder" is defined as "anyone who has at least a $3500 share in the
three mining pools". there were around 14,000 such people as of
arouuund.... november 1st.

it should be possible to make a guestimate of the total number of
people in the network based on that, if we make some conservative
guesses about the ratio of the number of people who did *not* by full
shares vs those who bought partial shares.

it's quite a lot of assumptions.... it'd do for a start. y'know
what... we could... um... just... ask them :)

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-28 08:39:06 UTC
Permalink
---
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Post by Julie Marchant
Sent this from the wrong email address. Please excuse the duplicate
email. Luke: if the other email is in the moderation queue, feel free to
just reject it, since it doesn't add anything beyond this version.
Post by Luca Saiu
http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/
I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the
investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and
likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It
would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck
in a Ponzi.
Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining,
exist right now. This is not going to end well.
I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the
funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind
of "multi-level marketing", which is almost certainly going to be a
financial loss to you.
nope, it won't. it's already a gain - someone kindly signed up and
took me over the threshold into $200/day commissions. time for
celebration, there :)
Post by Julie Marchant
The idea of "multi-level marketing" can be explained in a chart. The
"0"s represent people buying into it, with the one at the top being the
one who started it. Tell me, what does this look like?
i'm not ready yet to tell you the story, publicly, about the pyramid
scam perpetrated by the U.S. Federal Reserve back in 2007. the scope
and scale is... breathtaking in its brazen-ness. Senator Ron Paul's
book "End The Fed" and that film on the AAA+ mortgage scam is just the
tip of the iceberg that can be traced DIRECTLY back to, correlating
DIRECTLY with, that blatantly unethical and BEYOND criminal decision.

please... it makes me see red to hear people compare MLMs to pyramid
scams when, if you know where to look, you can see evidence of
governments basically doing exactly that and pretending it's not. i'm
taking it down a few mental defcon levels now... getting over the
feeling of outrage... callm, caaalm...

i've actually joined an MLM before (Moxxor - didn't make anything
because my partner ran it, we set up 3 accounts.... and she put
everything in "left leg"... sigh) and i know people who have (my
partner joined Usana 10 years ago and encouraged her family to join).
she earned a good salary at the time so it wasn't "risk", and actually
ended up buying then giving away quite a lot of pharmaceutical-grade
products to friends who really needed it. the problem was not so much
that it was damn hard work but that it "fizzled out". people gave up,
disillusioned, and, DESPITE the warnings, tried suing Usana. idiots,
the lot of them.

most MLMs have a peak period where the exponential effect, like any
evolutionarily constrained growth, out-strips "supply" and tails off.
i even did the implementation of "fox and chickens" population
algorithm growth, many years ago.

bitclbub will be absolutely no different from that, and everybody
KNOWS that IN ADVANCE. there's even warnings about it actually *on*
the informational pages and articles in the site. everyone KNOWS that
unless something drastically changes, there's a window of opportunity
of 3 to 5 years where mining is profitable. 12.5 BTC reward this
year, 6.25 18 months after that, 3.125 18 months after that...

... and that's probably the point where they might actually consider
shutting the entire operation down. or adapting to different
currencies. they do also offer GPU mining of about 7 or 8 altcoins.
Post by Julie Marchant
If you need money to survive, and you can't find any contracts for
well-paying work that you could do alongside EOMA68, then the best
well... someone very kindly joined and put in enough so that i've
crossed the first threshold for commissions :)
Post by Julie Marchant
1. Do whatever you can with the remaining funds to do the closest you
can to fulfilling your promises. This may force you to make cuts.
i'd already been doing that. the NAND is gone, and the next thing
that would have to go would be HDMI. this would be a bitch as anyone
with stand-alone Cards wouldn't be able to use them. i'd have to give
those people a Micro-Desktop PCB.
Post by Julie Marchant
For
example, perhaps you might have to scrap the laptop design entirely
i really *really* don't want to do that :) and, luckily, it looks
like i now won't have to. yay!
Post by Julie Marchant
and
only deliver cards and micro-desktops, then fund the laptop design
separately later.
yehyeh that's what the current plan is.
Post by Julie Marchant
Or, perhaps you will have to just abandon delivering
on the printed-for-you laptops, and everyone would have to print the
laptops on their own. This is the solution I would prefer; it would be a
bummer to not have everything you sought out for, but at least we would
have *something*. A starting point. It's better than nothing.
yyyeahh
Post by Julie Marchant
2. Put the project on hold to get a well-paying, actual job and build up
enough savings to continue as originally planned at a later date.
there are enough people already contacting me (1 every update,
usually) that further delays would be... bad. if i am explaining
privately to people that i am *actively* getting on with things,
they're fine with that. if i don't *have* an answer, it all goes to
hell in a handbasket very very quickly.

also, the fact that i am a software libre developer with such
significant copyright material, and that i had to stop adding to my CV
about 4 years ago when it got to i think 15 pages in length actually
means that i'm not really "employable" by traditional companies. the
insecure CTOs usually freak out and believe i'm after their job, and
the secure and sensible people state quite openly, "you will get bored
here, it would be IRRESPONSIBLE of us to employ you".

as a result my "employment" - actual paid work vs time not being paid
- has been consistently somewhere around FIFTEEN percent for the past
20 years. average income over a 20 year period: around USD $15,000.

bottom line is: anyone else this idea would be fine. for me - aged
47 and at the point where i should be a CTO of my own company.... not
going to work, is it?
Post by Julie Marchant
3. First do (1), then do (2) when you run out of funds.
yes - you basically described my default fall-back plan, in a nutshell.

some time about 5 weeks ago, i was pretty depressed and f****g fed
up, basically, and i went, "right, that's it, i've HAD it with this
consistent decade-long scraping around". i recovered the BTC i got
from the (almost failed, f*****g dangerous) butterfly labs equipment
purchased 4-5 years ago, and on hearing about bitclub from a friend,
immediately recognised the benefits *thanks* to my former experience
with MLMs and with mining, and it was an easy decision.
Post by Julie Marchant
Note: You said in a later email that it's just Bitcoin you already had
you're "investing" into this, but that's rather splitting hairs.
yes it is - i run on some... interesting ethically-based heuristics.
i didn't mention this before but last year i GAVE AWAY 1.3 of the
bitcoins mined by that incredibly dangerous butterflylabs equipment to
my sponsor, chris, from thinkpenguin. he'd sponsored me by that point
to the tune of USD $60,000, so it felt "right" to just... give it to
him.
Post by Julie Marchant
You said you have 0.65 BTC; that's currently worth almost $10,000.
it wasn't: 0.4 BTC was about... $3500 at the time i bought the
equipment. and it's already bought. the decision's been made.

0.25 i gave to someone in order to invest in their 3D printing
products, as a joint venture / investor in him, he's an extremely
reclusive and exceptionally competent engineer, and he'll be able to
pay for converting one of his products to injection-molded and we'll
be able to market it and make quite a lot of money. i've never
actually invested in anyone else's business before, it's a first for
me.

and i could *only* consider doing it because that BTC came from a
source that has absolutely nothing to do with the crowdfunding.
obviously though i chose to invest in something that will, indirectly,
benefit EOMA68 (in this case the 3D printing part).


the nature of who i am and what i am is not changing: over the past
20 years i've been through absolute HELL and the worst kinds of
exploitation by corporations spongeing off of my expertise, i've
witnessed key strategic people in the free software community also end
up being targetted by people wishing to exploit them, and i'm not
putting up with it any longer.
Post by Julie Marchant
That's a
*massive* financial loss you're looking at there. If you have no use for
the BTC and haven't been touching it, convert it to real currency and
put it in your bank.
nnope. the bang-per-buck ratio of doing so vs the potential to
fulfil the plans that i've been working on, everything i've read over
the past 20 years tells me that's "failure" talk. i've been looking
for something like this for some time, with the potential and also
sufficiently ethically justifiable to consider leveraging.

... one person i'm in touch with, they've been investigating altcoin
trading. they have asperger's so have the attention span and the
intelligence to VERY quickly do the research and experimentation.
what they've uncovered... holy f*** the insider trading and
"pump-and-dump" tactics being deployed world-wide right now are
OUTRIGHT BRAZEN. i did try talking him out of it but he seems to be
doing ok: he's up $1800 in 10 days and has encountered and fallen foul
of both John Macaffee's twitter "pump-and-dump" "AltCoin Of The
Day!!!" scam *and* the fraudulent guy who


my next target's USD $400 / day, which is where, every 9-10 days,
i'll be able to buy people from the free software and libre hardware
community a share of equipment that will earn them $30-$50 a day.

all of that funded not through putting CASH in but using MINED
BITCOIN and *commission* to do it.

l.

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Julie Marchant
2017-12-28 17:11:46 UTC
Permalink
gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just fine.

--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io
Post by Sam Huntress
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I
think that is something worth spending energy on.
indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create*
an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly
peer-to-peer distributed, and so on?
look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two
alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the
right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it.
if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that
is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really
want?
gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow.
l.
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Pen-Yuan Hsing
2017-12-28 17:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Interesting, I haven't heard of GNU Taler. But please excuse my
ignorance: Reading the official website doesn't help me understand
exactly what it is. Can you explain (or link to a good explanation)?
Post by Julie Marchant
gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just fine.
--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io
Post by Sam Huntress
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I
think that is something worth spending energy on.
indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create*
an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly
peer-to-peer distributed, and so on?
look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two
alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the
right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it.
if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that
is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really
want?
gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow.
l.
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Adam Van Ymeren
2017-12-28 18:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pen-Yuan Hsing
Interesting, I haven't heard of GNU Taler. But please excuse my
ignorance: Reading the official website doesn't help me understand
exactly what it is. Can you explain (or link to a good explanation)?
Post by Julie Marchant
gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a
way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just
fine.
Post by Julie Marchant
--
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io
On Dec 28, 2017 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress
Post by Sam Huntress
Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous
and
Post by Julie Marchant
Post by Sam Huntress
wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure,
distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be
and I
Post by Julie Marchant
Post by Sam Huntress
think that is something worth spending energy on.
indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage
*this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create*
an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly
peer-to-peer distributed, and so on?
look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least
two
Post by Julie Marchant
alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the
right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it.
if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that
is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really
want?
gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply
tomorrow.
Post by Julie Marchant
l.
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GNU Taler is like a digital IOU system.

It issues cryptographic tokens that are basically like IOUs for fiat currency. I transfer money from my bank to an exchange and receive tokens. I spent my tokens with a vendor. The vendor redeems tokens with the exchange to get fiat money into their bank account.

Theres more too it in the protocols that provides anonymity for the spender and an auditable log for the exchange, the ability to provide "change" for a transactio, nbut that's the gist of it.

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Bill Kontos
2017-12-28 23:03:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ok so the past couple of updates i sent out i mentioned that there's
no longer sufficient funds in the current campaign to further pay
accommodation or any other living expenses. thus it is *really
important* that i find sources of funds, immediately. beyond that, i
may have found something that's worth exploring that has the potential
to fund pretty much absolutely everything that we want to achieve, if
it is leveraged correctly.
one of the options that i am exploring is bltclub.
I got to be honest here, running out of funds in a crowdfunding
campaign and looking to make it up via bitcoin does not make me feel
very confident. I don't mean to rub it in your face and I'm sure
you've explored this thoroughly, but you also did that with the
campaign and yet you did run out of money because shit happens and
crypto is too messed up right now. Besides the problem with bitcoin is
that as of right now there are 200k pending transactions. So unless
you can confirm from beforehand that you can pay a significant amount
of the remaining expenses directly via bitcoin I don't think this idea
even computes as turning it into fiat is slow and expensive in
transaction fees.

An idea of mine: this project is exactly what the government funding
shakti hope for. Maybe ask madhu about potential government/uni funds.
Pitch the crowdfunding campaign as the proving ground of the standard
and hope for the best. Education is a good example. If it goes through
you will probably get more money that you'd know what to do with in
the context of the campaign, plus a nice trip to India.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 07:17:53 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Bill Kontos
I got to be honest here, running out of funds in a crowdfunding
campaign and looking to make it up via bitcoin does not make me feel
very confident.
luckily, aside from cashflow (which someone's offered to help with),
as of yesterday that's gone, $200/day. first commission came in at
3am this morning, TW time.

nit-picking: it's not bitcoin, it's bitcoin mining *commissions* that
make up the vaaaast bulk here, and those are issued in USD not BTC.
Post by Bill Kontos
I don't mean to rub it in your face and I'm sure
you've explored this thoroughly, but you also did that with the
campaign and yet you did run out of money because shit happens
that, and because i knew that there was quite a lot of technical
issues to be resolved (linux kernel stuff etc) the absolute last thing
needed is to go "mainstream user", hence why i am very happy that the
numbers are *only* 2500 backers, *only* 900 cards, *only* 450
microdesktop housings and *only* 120 PFY/PIY laptop housings.
Post by Bill Kontos
and
crypto is too messed up right now. Besides the problem with bitcoin is
that as of right now there are 200k pending transactions.
that's valuable information that i will need to know so as to be able
to plan ahead, thank you. if you hear anything like that please do
tell me straight away ok?
Post by Bill Kontos
An idea of mine: this project is exactly what the government funding
shakti hope for. Maybe ask madhu about potential government/uni funds.
yes... i will get a chance to talk to him about that in about a
month's time when the team isn't focussing 100% on tape-out.
Post by Bill Kontos
Pitch the crowdfunding campaign as the proving ground of the standard
and hope for the best. Education is a good example. If it goes through
you will probably get more money that you'd know what to do with in
the context of the campaign, plus a nice trip to India.
:)

madhu did explain that getting money out of india's bureaucratic
government system is.... sloooooow in the extreme. their reaction
time should, basically, not be relied on in any meaningful way.

one of the things that i will need to do is think through with madhu
*exactly* what kind of SoC the indian education sector would actually
need. there's a professor who did a report (18 months ago?) he
recommended 2gb RAM Intel Celeron laptops as being perfectly capable
of running LibreOffice, Firefox etc. etc.

so the EOMA68 laptop Housing with an EOMA68-RISCV64 processor with
say 4GB of dual 32-bit LPDDR3 RAM ICs would be *perfect*.

but... getting the indian *government* to pay that funding? yes.....
but 18 months late.

hence the focus on getting - FAST - the funds IN PLACE so that we
don't HAVE to wait around.

l.

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Joseph Lira
2017-12-29 18:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Luke just a little confused, are you saying if im from the first batch i wont get an eoma68 this June/July 2018?
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (***@gmail.com)
2. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
(Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
3. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (***@gmail.com)
4. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
(Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
5. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
6. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
7. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Alexander Ross)
8. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Sam Huntress)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:21:09 +0100
From: "***@gmail.com" <***@gmail.com>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC
Message-ID:
<CAJ2nOYA8x22QQxk-VWMJ1waoA+Hhvy4bSmgY7jAp+***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps
those guys can be hired to refine their work?
can you point me towards it with some clues?
I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Did find this:

https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki
https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki
https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects

Might as well be the Nyuzi one



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:23:35 +0000
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Message-ID:
<CAPweEDzJV3csLHTPK2ZPdzDK7qVtn=***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it
pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second?
the first batch was the first crowd-funded campaign: august 2016.
after that, crowdsupply effectively turned the site into a "pre-order
shop". none of the money from this SECOND batch has left
crowdsupply's bank account.

for the first batch, $175k, $25k appx is held by crowdsupply because
they'll be handling world-wide shipping. $130k of the $175k went to
thinkpenguin. $60k of that $130k immediately went to the factory in
china. $25k is left in thinkpenguin's bank account, to deal with the
laptops when we get to it. $45k of the $60k is left in mike's bank
account in china and that is ENTIRELY taken up with components and
PCBs for the EOMA68-A20 2.7.5 and Microdesktop 1.7.

so if you're in the first batch there *is* nothing spare to refund
*to* anyone. hence the question is absolutely critical because
attempting to pull out money which doesn't exist and/or has been
allocated for some considerable time does a LOT of damage.

but, the 2nd batch? not a problem at all.

l.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:24:02 +0100
From: "***@gmail.com" <***@gmail.com>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC
Message-ID:
<CAJ2nOYDcL3K6F1EyTkCwwB21ig73tqdK=***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps
those guys can be hired to refine their work?
can you point me towards it with some clues?
I can't seem to find it at the moment.
AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess
https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:34:20 +0000
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Message-ID:
<CAPweEDx2_6ZSey7pKXiwj7wMbxBi3LuzxaNZAW=95tP+***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some
confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is.
In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense
(lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on
investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to
'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'.
... down the tree until it collapses, yes.

apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was
cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times
larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so
consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the
largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history?

in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude
of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007
US Fed Res ponzi scheme)
In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100%
traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets
all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private
key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets.
you mean, starting e.g. from here:
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
and here:
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be
technically competent enough to make good investments.
Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that
whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you
to get back what you put in.
sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm
looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for
to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid
for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can
be paid for - outright.

i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and
*i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is
sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some
absolutely amazing...

... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS ....

... projects.

including REPLACING bitcoin.

l.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:35:07 +0000
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC
Message-ID:
<CAPweEDyTi=m_TvK5S-PHne9e5T0=ON+dEhSW3qh=***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps
those guys can be hired to refine their work?
can you point me towards it with some clues?
I can't seem to find it at the moment.
AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess
https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator
yeah that's the one i found, too. that's the one - one of the ones -
i want to fund.

l.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:37:40 +0000
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC
Message-ID:
<CAPweEDz2kV+***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps
those guys can be hired to refine their work?
can you point me towards it with some clues?
I can't seem to find it at the moment.
https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki
https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki
https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects
Might as well be the Nyuzi one
ah yehhh! thank you for reminding me! yeah i forgot about his work,
thank you. i know why i forgot it: i spoke to its developer, he said
there's some severe limitations... something about how it was put
together, it was never really intended to go above.... 50mhz (in an
FPGA) or... something. there was a fundamental design flaw in other
words.

might have changed since then.

but i went, "hmm, MIAOU shader engine plus ORSOC_GPU plus RISC-V core
would do *really* well"

l.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:07:03 +0000
From: Alexander Ross <maillist_arm-***@aross.me>
To: Linux on small ARM machines <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Message-ID: <c6daffa7-9f49-3e9a-5438-***@aross.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

After recently learning how bitcoin network fees and shot up to £70 min!
I asked for alts and was recommended to use dash.


https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20171227.034339.c3c3053f.en.html



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:13:10 -0500
From: Sam Huntress <***@gmail.com>
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Message-ID:
<CANYNf9sAHK1AVM60Zv-VqMXUyRZuPsgOef-***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
Yes, exactly.

The blocks they are mining are being awarded to
https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4
And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So
Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in.

As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent
Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary.

I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it
just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that
seem 'too-good-to-be-true'

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some
confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is.
In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false
pretense
(lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on
investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to
'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'.
... down the tree until it collapses, yes.
apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was
cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times
larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so
consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the
largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history?
in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude
of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007
US Fed Res ponzi scheme)
In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100%
traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which
wallets
all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard
public/private
key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets.
https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork
If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be
technically competent enough to make good investments.
Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope
that
whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for
you
to get back what you put in.
sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm
looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for
to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid
for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can
be paid for - outright.
i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and
*i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is
sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some
absolutely amazing...
... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS ....
... projects.
including REPLACING bitcoin.
l.
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------------------------------

End of arm-netbook Digest, Vol 89, Issue 31
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-29 18:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Lira
Luke just a little confused, are you saying if im from the
first batch i wont get an eoma68 this June/July 2018?
eoma68 is a standard, you can see it on elinux.org :)

you mean a physical item, in this case an eoma68-a20 computer card,
answer is: probably yes. now that the review's nearly done and
*assuming* it works we go with it (otherwise we go with 2.7.4 which
also works... just minus the HDMI interface), it should be february by
the time the 2.7.5 samples are done, march by the time 1,000 sets of
components are ordered, may-june by the time a batch of 1,000 PCBs
come in, june-july-august by the time they're assembled, tested, and
start getting shipped to the USA distribution hub (crowdsupply),
july-august-september by the time they start going out to actual
people.

l.

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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-12-30 10:01:29 UTC
Permalink
-------- Original Message --------
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Linux on small ARM machines <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000

On the current pc card situation I have some remarks.
Primarily directed at other pc card supporters.
I got the pc card after making some assessments.
Did I believe it was a scam, no. Did I believe the pc card
had a chance of getting made, yes. Did I believe
the pc card enterprise could shipwreck, yes. If so I
decided lkcl would not hear a word for it from me.
Of course I only made such decision because to
me the pc card's price is negligible.
If beneficial to lkcl, he can erase me from the
shipping list and no refund. I ask others to do the same.
I think lkcl has done more than one can expect. He
likely has gathered experiences and
knowledge about libre hardware, he
can use moving forward.
If lkcl can contribute to the riscv development,
he rather should do that, than potter
on an arm cpu, none of us like.
What I want to avoid is, that lkcl on
economic reasons gets discouraged and jammed.

I know the following is not achievable. I say it anyway.
One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of
money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay
lkcl 5usd a month. But only if I know lkcl gets the
required sum every month. 5Usd is cheap, I
know. If you want to pay more do it.

To me this matter is another prove of libre software
people not being streamlined. Libre software
people are up against companies like intel and
amd. Libre software people cannot expect to
achieve results if the matter is not better organized.
Among libre software people there should be a
system of fellowships enabling persons to work
on free software. No it does not have to
be lkcl. But such system should be created.
How should it be founded?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
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Mike Henry
2017-12-30 18:35:37 UTC
Permalink
https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke
should make an account.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000
On the current pc card situation I have some remarks.
Primarily directed at other pc card supporters.
I got the pc card after making some assessments.
Did I believe it was a scam, no. Did I believe the pc card
had a chance of getting made, yes. Did I believe
the pc card enterprise could shipwreck, yes. If so I
decided lkcl would not hear a word for it from me.
Of course I only made such decision because to
me the pc card's price is negligible.
If beneficial to lkcl, he can erase me from the
shipping list and no refund. I ask others to do the same.
I think lkcl has done more than one can expect. He
likely has gathered experiences and
knowledge about libre hardware, he
can use moving forward.
If lkcl can contribute to the riscv development,
he rather should do that, than potter
on an arm cpu, none of us like.
What I want to avoid is, that lkcl on
economic reasons gets discouraged and jammed.
I know the following is not achievable. I say it anyway.
One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of
money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay
lkcl 5usd a month. But only if I know lkcl gets the
required sum every month. 5Usd is cheap, I
know. If you want to pay more do it.
To me this matter is another prove of libre software
people not being streamlined. Libre software
people are up against companies like intel and
amd. Libre software people cannot expect to
achieve results if the matter is not better organized.
Among libre software people there should be a
system of fellowships enabling persons to work
on free software. No it does not have to
be lkcl. But such system should be created.
How should it be founded?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
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zap
2017-12-30 18:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Henry
https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke
should make an account.
I know I am guilty of this as well, but Luke is going to say, don't top
post. 

and yes, liberapay.com is a good idea rather than bitcoin. :)

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-30 19:04:35 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry
Post by Mike Henry
https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke
should make an account.
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/

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zap
2017-12-30 19:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry
Post by Mike Henry
https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke
should make an account.
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
Smart decision 
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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zap
2017-12-30 19:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry
Post by Mike Henry
https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke
should make an account.
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
When I get a chance I will send you some money. Just need to get my
paychecks after holiday. :0
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-30 19:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
When I get a chance I will send you some money. Just need to get my
paychecks after holiday. :0
:) thx zap

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Pablo Rath
2017-12-30 21:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
I am going to send you some money for the next 9 months (at least).
I registered an account at liberapay and started the process to transfer money to my
account. I think it will take a couple of business days till you can see
it on your account.

kind regards
Pablo

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Raphaël Mélotte
2017-12-31 16:40:54 UTC
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Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of
money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay
lkcl 5usd a month.
Great idea ! 5USD per month is also all I can afford for now, but on the
other hand if half of the backers
could afford it that would be ~5000USD per month !

I never used Liberapay before, but it seems interesting, I'm signing up now.
Thanks to who mentioned it
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-01 09:34:47 UTC
Permalink
[ron, thank you for writing this, it's very insightful and thoughtful]
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
If beneficial to lkcl, he can erase me from the
shipping list and no refund. I ask others to do the same.
that's really appreciated, that you would consider making what is in
effect a donation or sponsorship. my primary concern here, is, that
the computers that i am making *remain in circulation and in use*. so
this is actually really rather important (enough so that i'll probably
make a special update about it, now that i think about it).

if anyone is backing the project with the intention of seeing it
succeed but *not* actually intending to find someone who will
*actually* use the computer, please do contact crowdsupply -
***@crowdsupply.com - with your order number (cc me) and say "hello
i would like to turn my pledge into a donation, for luke to find
someone to donate or sell the computer to, thank you".
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I think lkcl has done more than one can expect. He
likely has gathered experiences and
knowledge about libre hardware, he
can use moving forward.
... and anyone else can as well: that's primarily why i pushed
through joshua's initial reticence at the length of each update that i
write. i learned from openmoko, and from openpandora, and many
others: i in turn am simply doing the same thing.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
If lkcl can contribute to the riscv development,
he rather should do that, than potter
on an arm cpu, none of us like.
What I want to avoid is, that lkcl on
economic reasons gets discouraged and jammed.
appreciated.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I know the following is not achievable. I say it anyway.
One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of
money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay
lkcl 5usd a month. But only if I know lkcl gets the
required sum every month. 5Usd is cheap, I
know. If you want to pay more do it.
everything helps. it's the fundamental basis of crowd-funding.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
To me this matter is another prove of libre software
people not being streamlined. Libre software
people are up against companies like intel and
amd. Libre software people cannot expect to
achieve results if the matter is not better organized.
well, what's really nice is that intel, amd and ARM are now up
against the Indian Government. my unexpected role seems to be to keep
madhu's feet on the ground as he's like.. a high-torque Muscle Car
Motor... without a gearbox to put all that power into
"rubber-on-the-road" :)
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Among libre software people there should be a
system of fellowships enabling persons to work
on free software. No it does not have to
be lkcl.
... and it shouldn't. i have enough to do.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
But such system should be created.
How should it be founded?
there do exist several. it does seem though that certain well-known
and well-respected people whose contribution has been consistent and
long-term *within their community* can receive funding - if they ask
for it - pretty much immediately. the value they're offering is
clear. i'm thinking in particular of joey hess. joey raised i think
it was USD $100,000 in a DAY or something mad for an idea he had to
create a distributed automated home directory mounting system based
around git, so that people in the free software community could not
just back up files off-site but also if they went to conferences or
wherever they could *borrow* a random piece of equipment when they
arrived and gain *direct* access to their home directory.

here he is:

https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/DIY_crowdfunding_and_bitcoin/

so interestingly he started on kickstarter (where his project
immediately became a "staff pick"), then did a second campaign using
his own infrastructure... because he's technically competent to handle
that, and because he is extremely well-known and well-liked. and has
consistently demonstrated an ability to *communicate* effectively with
people across the world.

this is what crowdsupply helped *me* with, enormously: they provided
me with a platform where i could easily *communicate*. i had to do
non-stop 6 hour marathons *every damn day* on different forums (70 in
total over the course of the campaign - i kept a list so i could
myself keep track), *and* still spend time to write updates (every 2-3
days), without which there wouldn't be anything *to* actually talk
about on those various forums.

so... if anything... the lesson is that it's not so much the medium
or method as it is the ability (and the tools behind you) to
communicate effectively.

l.

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Pablo Rath
2018-01-01 13:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
But such system should be created.
How should it be founded?
there do exist several. it does seem though that certain well-known
and well-respected people whose contribution has been consistent and
long-term *within their community* can receive funding - if they ask
for it - pretty much immediately. the value they're offering is
clear. i'm thinking in particular of joey hess.
Today I read an interesting blogpost of Joey about Patreon, Liberapay
and Bitcoin.
He recently created a liberapay account and he hopes liberapay works out.
Read the post here:
https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/two_holiday_stories/

kind regards
Pablo

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-01 13:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo Rath
Today I read an interesting blogpost of Joey about Patreon, Liberapay
and Bitcoin.
He recently created a liberapay account and he hopes liberapay works out.
https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/two_holiday_stories/
thanks pablo. yeah joey's cool. btw that prompted me to investigate
and change the username
http://liberapay/lkcl

l.

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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-12-30 20:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should
make a website. It should show which amount of money he
wants monthly and how much people have paid a given
month.
It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I
am not going to register about a new service in order to get
to pay.
As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for,
I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get
the amount he asks for, I stop my payments.
Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me
people are not interested in paying more in order to get their
items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the
pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding
those who wanted a laptop.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
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zap
2017-12-30 21:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should
make a website. It should show which amount of money he
wants monthly and how much people have paid a given
month.
It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I
am not going to register about a new service in order to get
to pay.
As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for,
I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get
the amount he asks for, I stop my payments.
Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me
people are not interested in paying more in order to get their
items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the
pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding
those who wanted a laptop.
I do agree that would be nice, but I don't want to see anyone or myself
put crap on his shoulders anymore than they have already...

No offense... but your idea might being going too far.  I don't know
what Luke thinks, but I am sure he will tell us soon.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
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zap
2017-12-30 21:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should
make a website. It should show which amount of money he
wants monthly and how much people have paid a given
month.
It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I
am not going to register about a new service in order to get
to pay.
As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for,
I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get
the amount he asks for, I stop my payments.
Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me
people are not interested in paying more in order to get their
items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the
pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding
those who wanted a laptop.
I do agree that would be nice, but I don't want to see anyone or myself
put crap on his shoulders anymore than they have already...
No offense... but your idea might being going too far.  I don't know
what Luke thinks, but I am sure he will tell us soon.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
Oh, ps I recommend you make clear on that page what organization you
are, etc,
Post by zap
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Pen-Yuan Hsing
2017-12-31 00:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should
make a website. It should show which amount of money he
wants monthly and how much people have paid a given
month.
It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I
am not going to register about a new service in order to get
to pay.
As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for,
I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get
the amount he asks for, I stop my payments.
Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me
people are not interested in paying more in order to get their
items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the
pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding
those who wanted a laptop.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but Luke have you investigated
[snowdrift.coop](https://snowdrift.coop/) and [Open
Collective](https://opencollective.com/)?

I know snowdrift.coop hasn't fully launched yet, but can this project be
one of its "launch partners"?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-12-31 05:55:54 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Pen-Yuan Hsing
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but Luke have you investigated
[snowdrift.coop](https://snowdrift.coop/) and [Open
Collective](https://opencollective.com/)?
I know snowdrift.coop hasn't fully launched yet, but can this project be one
of its "launch partners"?
great idea. joined and bookmarked snowdrift.


requires and critically depends on the use of a proprietary non-free service:
https://opencollective.com/signin?next=/opensource/apply

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