[Arm-netbook] #2- "MLC NAnd" corrupts-on-read how oft? Would your's have "ECCs", and use them to boot correctly?

[Sam Pablo Kuper]

The questions in THIS "e"mail, are regarding the "MLC NAnd" mentioned
(as planned in the computer-cards via "Crowd Supply") in the
"Q/A"-section on the campaign-page-
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
[...]
Links-
a little info' on corruption, and on patented ]:^[ work to solve it-
https://storagegaga.wordpress.com/category/data-corruption/
a little on how "NAnd-flash" works, and file-systems-
http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/doc/nand.html
more on how it works and how it can get corrupted-
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279762
followed by pages 2 to
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279762&page_number=4
some research on read-disturbs and mitigation-
https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~saugatag/papers/15dsn.pdf
detailed comparison of "MLC" and "SLC", with advice on how to use both-
https://cdn.selinc.com/assets/Literature/Publications/White
Papers/0015_NANDflash_IO_20141211.pdf?v=20151004-191546
(There should be a single space between "White" and "Papers".)
booting "Allwinner" chips-
http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM

Thanks for collating these links.

Bunnie Huang and Xobs have also been doing some work on flash memory.

Their key quote, as mentioned in the write-up below: "with flash memory
you are not really storing your data; what you are storing is a
probabilistic approximation of your data."

(Plus, they demonstrated that your SD card can MITM you.)

Modern computers may be astoundingly portable and inexpensive, but they
are, as yet, far from being perfectly reliable or secure.

https://threatpost.com/flash-memory-cards-contain-powerful-unsecured-microcontrollers/103366/

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[c***@sasktel.net]

(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions enclosed by {}, and ~ for
omissions.)

But from a private reply from Luke (quoted next below), I guess that we
have SOME more time.

hiya chad, welcome to the list.
ok, so i've learned that crowdsupply is taking preorders from the end
date of the campaign, for a second batch which will be after the first
one is delivered. exact dates TBD, i'll need to see how things go.

But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same time, and each factory produces
it's things as one batch?

l.
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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Post by c***@sasktel.net
(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions
enclosed by {}, and ~ for omissions.)

But from a private reply from Luke (quoted next below), I guess that we
have SOME more time.

hiya chad, welcome to the list.
ok, so i've learned that crowdsupply is taking preorders from the end
date of the campaign, for a second batch which will be after the first
one is delivered. exact dates TBD, i'll need to see how things go.

But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same time,
and each factory produces it's things as one batch?

produces it is things.... no it doesn't "produce it is things" - that
doesn't make any sense. it might produce *its* things...

Post by c***@sasktel.net
and each factory produces its things as one batch?

ah, now we're using the relative pronoun "its", instead of the
contraction of the two words "it" and "is" with an apostrophe, the
sentence makes sense.

yes, the factory produces its things in one batch: the setup and
teardown costs (equipment, wasted materials) are pretty much the same
no matter how many "things" are made. so if you want one "thing"
made, it will cost you.... $USD 1,200. if you want *five* "things"
made, it will cost you $1700 (around $340 each). but if you want a
*thousand* made, they're $30 each.

... exactly the same "thing", exactly the same factory... exactly the
same cost to set up, exactly the same cost to clean up afterwards.

so the more you can get made at once, the less they cost. very simple.

the extreme case is here, very very funny ted talk, by the man who
lived as a goat:
http://www.geek.com/geek-pick/nine-month-project-to-build-a-toaster-from-scratch-results-in-a-book-toaster-like-monstrosties-1424175/

l.

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[c***@sasktel.net]

On 16.9.8 10:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
~~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net
(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions
enclosed by {}, and ~ for omissions.)

~~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net
But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same time,
and each factory produces it's things as one batch?

produces it is things.... no it doesn't "produce it is things" - that
doesn't make any sense. it might produce *its* things...

Post by c***@sasktel.net
and each factory produces its things as one batch?

ah, now we're using the relative pronoun "its", instead of the
contraction of the two words "it" and "is" with an apostrophe, the
sentence makes sense.

~~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.

[No offense intended. (:^) ]

Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.
"its" is _not_ a Relative Pronoun. Relative pronouns are "who what where when why how whom whose".
"it" is a Personal Pronoun, like "he she they". If it has a possessive form, then that form is a
Possessive Pronoun (like "theirs"), or else a Possessive Pronominal Adjective (like "their").
I guess that thou meant the concept of Possessive Pronoun, _not_ Relative Pronoun.

===============================

One general rule in English- with _other_ words (like "crayon") to which an "s" has been added
at the end-
(like "Crayons color things.") if no apostrophe, then plural.
(like "crayon's tip") if apostrophe _before_ the "s", then possessive.
(like "crayons' case") if apostrophe _after_ the "s", then plural _and_ possessive.

This general rule conflicts with another common use of apostrophe-s (using it to mean "is" or
"has"). How resolve?

Thou seem to propose that "its" is possessive. My small "Oxford"-dictionary said that, as did
"The Elements of Style" written by "Strunk" and "White".
But, I am not aware of any _other_ English word becoming possessive by mere "s" withOUT an
apostrophe. So to decide that "its" is possessive, seems an unreasonable dogmatic "exception" to the
general rule above.
English usage has many UNreasonable "exceptions" to it's rules. So, English seems unreasonably
difficult to learn as a second language. (This is not "sour grapes". English is my first language,
and I did _not_ have special trouble with it in school.)
Are we unwilling, to abandon arbitrary "exceptions" so that others can more-easily learn _our_
_first_ language and communicate with _us_? Then we must look like "arrogant" snobs who try to keep
"proper" English difficult enough to "exclude" the riff-raff. Especially since
native-English-speakers, on average, seem to not try as hard to learn someone _else's_ language.

So, if we use such contractions, then how interpret apostrophe-s? With _most_ words, it does
not work to use mere "s" for possessive, because we use that for plural! (Even with "it", to switch
to "they" for plural, means losing the neuterness of "it". Babies are not "its"!)
(a) Often, context clears up the ambiguity.
This is of course how thou, Luke, was able to understand me. Thou evaluated two possible
interpretations. Thou remarked that one "doesn't make any sense", while with the other
interpretation, "the sentence makes sense". As thou demonstrated, my meaning was adequately clear in
context, regardless of apostrophe.
(b) For some ambiguous uses, it might help to ask, "If the writer meant this possible
interpretation, then could he have easily made his words more clear?"
If a person means "it is", then that is nearly as easy to say and type, as "it's". (With typing
on a "QWERTY", the difference is merely- thumb down on space-bar and next middle-finger sliding
forward to "i", versus little finger awkwardly stretching outward to apostrophe.)
If a person means "belonging to it" or "owned by it", those obviously require more additional
work than "it is" requires.

These guide-lines seem adequate, to enable writers and readers, to clear up the ambiguity of
apostrophe-s, for _practically_all_other_ relevant words. So, it seems (selfish) capricious "special
pleading", if we choose to make an "exception" for "it".

I do not presume that I shall change any one else's mind on this. (But, considering all of the
significant evidence that I am aware of, I will not change on this.)

I could have silently continued using "it's" for "belonging to it". But since thou prodded me, I
thought it'd be less annoying if I replied with an "explanation".

No offense intended,
Chad. (:^)

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[Christopher Havel]

English is a remarkably inconsistent PITA, isn't it...?

Could be worse, though. Esperanto.

;)

Post by c***@sasktel.net
~~~~~~

Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by c***@sasktel.net
(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions
enclosed by {}, and ~ for omissions.)
~~~~~~

But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same

Post by c***@sasktel.net
time,
and each factory produces it's things as one batch?

produces it is things.... no it doesn't "produce it is things" - that
doesn't make any sense. it might produce *its* things...
and each factory produces its things as one batch?
ah, now we're using the relative pronoun "its", instead of the
contraction of the two words "it" and "is" with an apostrophe, the
sentence makes sense.
~~~~~~
l.
[No offense intended. (:^) ]

Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.
"its" is _not_ a Relative Pronoun. Relative pronouns are "who what
where when why how whom whose".
"it" is a Personal Pronoun, like "he she they". If it has a possessive
form, then that form is a Possessive Pronoun (like "theirs"), or else a
Possessive Pronominal Adjective (like "their").
I guess that thou meant the concept of Possessive Pronoun, _not_ Relative Pronoun.
===============================
One general rule in English- with _other_ words (like "crayon") to
which an "s" has been added at the end-
(like "Crayons color things.") if no apostrophe, then plural.
(like "crayon's tip") if apostrophe _before_ the "s", then possessive.
(like "crayons' case") if apostrophe _after_ the "s", then plural _and_ possessive.
This general rule conflicts with another common use of apostrophe-s
(using it to mean "is" or "has"). How resolve?
Thou seem to propose that "its" is possessive. My small
"Oxford"-dictionary said that, as did "The Elements of Style" written by
"Strunk" and "White".
But, I am not aware of any _other_ English word becoming possessive by
mere "s" withOUT an apostrophe. So to decide that "its" is possessive,
seems an unreasonable dogmatic "exception" to the general rule above.
English usage has many UNreasonable "exceptions" to it's rules. So,
English seems unreasonably difficult to learn as a second language. (This
is not "sour grapes". English is my first language, and I did _not_ have
special trouble with it in school.)
Are we unwilling, to abandon arbitrary "exceptions" so that others can
more-easily learn _our_ _first_ language and communicate with _us_? Then
we must look like "arrogant" snobs who try to keep "proper" English
difficult enough to "exclude" the riff-raff. Especially since
native-English-speakers, on average, seem to not try as hard to learn
someone _else's_ language.
So, if we use such contractions, then how interpret apostrophe-s?
With _most_ words, it does not work to use mere "s" for possessive, because
we use that for plural! (Even with "it", to switch to "they" for plural,
means losing the neuterness of "it". Babies are not "its"!)
(a) Often, context clears up the ambiguity.
This is of course how thou, Luke, was able to understand me. Thou
evaluated two possible interpretations. Thou remarked that one "doesn't
make any sense", while with the other interpretation, "the sentence makes
sense". As thou demonstrated, my meaning was adequately clear in context,
regardless of apostrophe.
(b) For some ambiguous uses, it might help to ask, "If the writer
meant this possible interpretation, then could he have easily made his
words more clear?"
If a person means "it is", then that is nearly as easy to say and type,
as "it's". (With typing on a "QWERTY", the difference is merely- thumb
down on space-bar and next middle-finger sliding forward to "i", versus
little finger awkwardly stretching outward to apostrophe.)
If a person means "belonging to it" or "owned by it", those obviously
require more additional work than "it is" requires.
These guide-lines seem adequate, to enable writers and readers, to
clear up the ambiguity of apostrophe-s, for _practically_all_other_
relevant words. So, it seems (selfish) capricious "special pleading", if
we choose to make an "exception" for "it".
I do not presume that I shall change any one else's mind on this.
(But, considering all of the significant evidence that I am aware of, I
will not change on this.)
I could have silently continued using "it's" for "belonging to it".
But since thou prodded me, I thought it'd be less annoying if I replied
with an "explanation".
No offense intended,
Chad. (:^)
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[Christopher Havel]

Oh, whoops, top-posted. My apologies to Luke.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by c***@sasktel.net
[No offense intended. (:^) ]

none taken - we're all learning - let's have some fun with this.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.
"its" is _not_ a Relative Pronoun. Relative pronouns are "who what where
when why how whom whose".

oh! yes, sorry, you're right - i meant "possessive pronoun".

Post by c***@sasktel.net
"it" is a Personal Pronoun, like "he she they". If it has a possessive
form, then that form is a Possessive Pronoun (like "theirs"), or else a
Possessive Pronominal Adjective (like "their").
I guess that thou meant the concept of Possessive Pronoun, _not_ Relative Pronoun.

yes i did. let's take a look, google "its" and that comes up with
two top links one for "its" and one for "it's". let's look at the one
for "it's":

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/it-s

Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
1.
contraction of it is: It's starting to rain.
2.
contraction of it has: It's been a long time.

Can be confused
it's, its (see confusables note at its )

interesting! i'll use that one in future, i didn't realise that
"it's" can be a short-hand for "it has".


Definition:

"pronoun, nominative it, possessive its or (Obsoleteor Dialect) it,
objective it; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs,
objective them."

so the word "it" is qualified as a "pronoun", and the word "its" is
defined as a *possessive* pronoun.


the definition in merriam-webster is much less helpful but gives good examples:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/its

this one's i can see it's much more helpful:
http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/grammar-lesson-possessive-adjectives.php

it's also showing that "its" is a possessive pronoun. i wonder why i
said "relative pronoun" when in all other instances i've said
"possessive"? huh.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
But, I am not aware of any _other_ English word becoming possessive by
mere "s" withOUT an apostrophe. So to decide that "its" is possessive,
seems an unreasonable dogmatic "exception" to the general rule above.

it's explained here:
https://www.writingforward.com/grammar/homophones/homophones-its-and-its

Post by c***@sasktel.net
English usage has many UNreasonable "exceptions" to it's rules.

ahhh! gotcha! you mean "english usage has many Unreasonable
"exceptions" to its (possessive pronoun) rules" :)

Post by c***@sasktel.net
So,
English seems unreasonably difficult to learn as a second language.

it turns out that numbers, as an example, in all european languages,
cause a huge amount of difficulty for children, resulting in
significantly-delayed development of numerical arithmetic skills. in
the far east, numbers are really *really* straightforward: 0-9 have
their own word, you just read the digits out using those 0-9 words, to
the point where on the HK stock exchange i heard that people are able
to communicate at ten numbers *PER SECOND* which is phenomenal. my
friend phil also pointed out to me the "flash-card" technique of
training kids in japan as young as seven and eight to do six-digit
mental arithmetic, where they're expected to have 100% accuracy on
something mad like... i can't remember exactly what he said but i
believe it was in excess of two six-digit sums *per second*. i may be
underestimating there so as not to trip any "total disbelief verging
on bullshit" mental radars.

in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount
of physical effort required to morph the mouth between some of the
syllables! qua-tre vingt dix huit. pronounced "ka-tr-uh va-i-ngg
dee-ss-wh-ee-t" and translated in english "four-twenty ten-eight"!!

(This

Post by c***@sasktel.net
is not "sour grapes". English is my first language, and I did _not_ have
special trouble with it in school.)
Are we unwilling, to abandon arbitrary "exceptions" so that others can
more-easily learn _our_ _first_ language and communicate with _us_?

english is the international language for programming, and
programming is about absolute clarity and precision. so in this *very
specific* field... i'd say yes, absolutely.

*outside* of the world of computing, whilst it just makes people who
should know better (such as in marketing), it just makes people "look
dumb". i've seen both BT *and* Shell as recently as 10-15 years ago
put up huge signs across all their stores in the UK make basic
fundamental mistakes with the use of possessive pronouns.

http://www.copyblogger.com/5-common-mistakes-that-make-you-look-dumb/

but even if they "look dumb" it's not so critical - it's not so
important in its level of clarity that a product be marketed in its
best possible light, but it's clearly important in its level of
security and effectiveness for a program to be at its most accurately
specified and actioned, as well as being important that it's
well-documented.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
If a person means "it is", then that is nearly as easy to say and type,
as "it's". (With typing on a "QWERTY", the difference is merely- thumb down
on space-bar and next middle-finger sliding forward to "i", versus little
finger awkwardly stretching outward to apostrophe.)

*ROTFL* yeah... the hilarious thing is: it's actually more physical
effort to type the *correct* word "its" than it is to type the wrong
phrase "it's" :)

Post by c***@sasktel.net
I do not presume that I shall change any one else's mind on this. (But,
considering all of the significant evidence that I am aware of, I will not
change on this.)

... and you'd be perfectly within your right to self-determination to
make such a declaration, and to continue to adhere to it for as long
as you perceive it to be useful to you.

now, do allow me to summarise what *my* position is (from the above).
as a hardware engineer in training, and a software engineer, clarity
and unambiguity is absolute and paramount. one small mistake in
hardware can cost $10,000 or even more. so with that training (and
level of penalty for not getting it right) comes an in-built "radar'
for pointing out *any* possible ambiguity, especially in written
language. and that's why i really appreciated you pointing out the
mistake that i made.

l.

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[Albert ARIBAUD]

Bonjour,

Le Fri, 9 Sep 2016 17:42:17 +0100

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount
of physical effort required to morph the mouth between some of the
syllables! qua-tre vingt dix huit. pronounced "ka-tr-uh va-i-ngg
dee-ss-wh-ee-t" and translated in english "four-twenty ten-eight"!!

Yep -- that's a legacy from the Gauls IIRC, who made a habit of counting
in twenties, which we kept in part (why in part only is one of those
marvellous mysteries of language). But we're slowly getting better: in
older times, counting in twenties was way more pervasive, with for
instance a famous hospital being named "quinze-vingt" (literally :
fifteen twenties) because it could accommodate 300 beds.

<nag mode ON>

OTOH, we French have primed the use of the metric system before 1800
while even today the British and Americans (among others) insist on
using some imperial system(s). :)

</nag>

(I can't help smiling every time I re-read the footnote in _Good Omens_
about the old British currency system and how the Brits considered the
decimal currency system /too complicated/ to adopt.)

Amicalement,

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

Post by Albert ARIBAUD
Bonjour,

allo albert. i found the 2 frida LCDs btw.

Post by Albert ARIBAUD
<nag mode ON>
OTOH, we French have primed the use of the metric system before 1800
while even today the British and Americans (among others) insist on
using some imperial system(s). :)
</nag>

haha yeah in electronics they use mm *and* mil (thousands of an inch)
- i use both (!) regularly in the electronics designs i'm doing...
blergh...

Post by Albert ARIBAUD
(I can't help smiling every time I re-read the footnote in _Good Omens_
about the old British currency system and how the Brits considered the
decimal currency system /too complicated/ to adopt.)

oo, oo, i remember! well, it's true. 12 you can count on the
knuckles of four fingers, and it divides cleanly by 2, 3, 4 *and* 6!
12 is a coool number...

l.

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[Stefan Monnier]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount

Sorry, but I only count 3 (or 4 if you pronounce the "e") syllables
in "nonante-huit".


Stefan "speaking French from another country than France"


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[Normand Chamberland]

Post by Stefan Monnier

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount

Sorry, but I only count 3 (or 4 if you pronounce the "e") syllables
in "nonante-huit".
Stefan "speaking French from another country than France"
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Sorry Stefan, but I strongly doubt that "nonante" for 90 and "septante"
for 70 are widely used in Francophonie. The most widely used term should
take precedence over regionalisms.

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonante

Normand "from Québec, Canada where "nonante" is *never,
ever* used."


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[Normand Chamberland]

Post by Normand Chamberland

Post by Stefan Monnier

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount

Sorry, but I only count 3 (or 4 if you pronounce the "e") syllables
in "nonante-huit".
Stefan "speaking French from another country than France"
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Sorry Stefan, but I strongly doubt that "nonante" for 90 and "septante"
for 70 are widely used in Francophonie. The most widely used term should
take precedence over regionalisms.
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonante
Normand "from Québec, Canada where "nonante" is *never,
ever* used."

I'm sorry to admit that I didn't bother reading the whole conversation
prior to replying first. I mistakenly assumed this was related to some
planned documentation about EOMA, but it appears it was just iddle talk.
So please disregard and carry on, nothing wrong in using regionalisms in
a specific country... In French Canada we have a boatload of them! :-P

Again sorry,

Normand


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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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Post by Normand Chamberland
I'm sorry to admit that I didn't bother reading the whole conversation
prior to replying first. I mistakenly assumed this was related to some
planned documentation about EOMA, but it appears it was just iddle talk.

idle talk that hopefully illustrates a point...

Post by Normand Chamberland
So please disregard and carry on, nothing wrong in using regionalisms in
a specific country... In French Canada we have a boatload of them! :-P

... that drive parisians nuts, i hear :)

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[Normand Chamberland]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Normand Chamberland
I'm sorry to admit that I didn't bother reading the whole conversation
prior to replying first. I mistakenly assumed this was related to some
planned documentation about EOMA, but it appears it was just iddle talk.

idle talk that hopefully illustrates a point...

Post by Normand Chamberland
So please disregard and carry on, nothing wrong in using regionalisms in
a specific country... In French Canada we have a boatload of them! :-P

... that drive parisians nuts, i hear :)

Our way of speaking French certainly baffles any French speaker not
accustomed to it. :P Of course like for any languages there are
different levels of language and sub-regionalisms. I myself can have a
hard time understanding some French Canadians from other areas with a
wildly different accent than mine. :)



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[c***@sasktel.net]

I do not have time for this debate now. I am "swamped" with work. I need to get other things done.

Sincerely, Chad. (:^)

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net
[No offense intended. (:^) ]

none taken - we're all learning - let's have some fun with this.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.
"its" is _not_ a Relative Pronoun. Relative pronouns are "who what where
when why how whom whose".

oh! yes, sorry, you're right - i meant "possessive pronoun".

Post by c***@sasktel.net
"it" is a Personal Pronoun, like "he she they". If it has a possessive
form, then that form is a Possessive Pronoun (like "theirs"), or else a
Possessive Pronominal Adjective (like "their").
I guess that thou meant the concept of Possessive Pronoun, _not_ Relative Pronoun.

yes i did. let's take a look, google "its" and that comes up with
two top links one for "its" and one for "it's". let's look at the one
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/it-s
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
1.
contraction of it is: It's starting to rain.
2.
contraction of it has: It's been a long time.
Can be confused
it's, its (see confusables note at its )
interesting! i'll use that one in future, i didn't realise that
"it's" can be a short-hand for "it has".
"pronoun, nominative it, possessive its or (Obsoleteor Dialect) it,
objective it; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs,
objective them."
so the word "it" is qualified as a "pronoun", and the word "its" is
defined as a *possessive* pronoun.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/its
http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/grammar-lesson-possessive-adjectives.php
it's also showing that "its" is a possessive pronoun. i wonder why i
said "relative pronoun" when in all other instances i've said
"possessive"? huh.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
But, I am not aware of any _other_ English word becoming possessive by
mere "s" withOUT an apostrophe. So to decide that "its" is possessive,
seems an unreasonable dogmatic "exception" to the general rule above.

https://www.writingforward.com/grammar/homophones/homophones-its-and-its

Post by c***@sasktel.net
English usage has many UNreasonable "exceptions" to it's rules.

ahhh! gotcha! you mean "english usage has many Unreasonable
"exceptions" to its (possessive pronoun) rules" :)

Post by c***@sasktel.net
So,
English seems unreasonably difficult to learn as a second language.

it turns out that numbers, as an example, in all european languages,
cause a huge amount of difficulty for children, resulting in
significantly-delayed development of numerical arithmetic skills. in
the far east, numbers are really *really* straightforward: 0-9 have
their own word, you just read the digits out using those 0-9 words, to
the point where on the HK stock exchange i heard that people are able
to communicate at ten numbers *PER SECOND* which is phenomenal. my
friend phil also pointed out to me the "flash-card" technique of
training kids in japan as young as seven and eight to do six-digit
mental arithmetic, where they're expected to have 100% accuracy on
something mad like... i can't remember exactly what he said but i
believe it was in excess of two six-digit sums *per second*. i may be
underestimating there so as not to trip any "total disbelief verging
on bullshit" mental radars.
in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount
of physical effort required to morph the mouth between some of the
syllables! qua-tre vingt dix huit. pronounced "ka-tr-uh va-i-ngg
dee-ss-wh-ee-t" and translated in english "four-twenty ten-eight"!!
(This

Post by c***@sasktel.net
is not "sour grapes". English is my first language, and I did _not_ have
special trouble with it in school.)
Are we unwilling, to abandon arbitrary "exceptions" so that others can
more-easily learn _our_ _first_ language and communicate with _us_?

english is the international language for programming, and
programming is about absolute clarity and precision. so in this *very
specific* field... i'd say yes, absolutely.
*outside* of the world of computing, whilst it just makes people who
should know better (such as in marketing), it just makes people "look
dumb". i've seen both BT *and* Shell as recently as 10-15 years ago
put up huge signs across all their stores in the UK make basic
fundamental mistakes with the use of possessive pronouns.
http://www.copyblogger.com/5-common-mistakes-that-make-you-look-dumb/
but even if they "look dumb" it's not so critical - it's not so
important in its level of clarity that a product be marketed in its
best possible light, but it's clearly important in its level of
security and effectiveness for a program to be at its most accurately
specified and actioned, as well as being important that it's
well-documented.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
If a person means "it is", then that is nearly as easy to say and type,
as "it's". (With typing on a "QWERTY", the difference is merely- thumb down
on space-bar and next middle-finger sliding forward to "i", versus little
finger awkwardly stretching outward to apostrophe.)

*ROTFL* yeah... the hilarious thing is: it's actually more physical
effort to type the *correct* word "its" than it is to type the wrong
phrase "it's" :)

Post by c***@sasktel.net
I do not presume that I shall change any one else's mind on this. (But,
considering all of the significant evidence that I am aware of, I will not
change on this.)

... and you'd be perfectly within your right to self-determination to
make such a declaration, and to continue to adhere to it for as long
as you perceive it to be useful to you.
now, do allow me to summarise what *my* position is (from the above).
as a hardware engineer in training, and a software engineer, clarity
and unambiguity is absolute and paramount. one small mistake in
hardware can cost $10,000 or even more. so with that training (and
level of penalty for not getting it right) comes an in-built "radar'
for pointing out *any* possible ambiguity, especially in written
language. and that's why i really appreciated you pointing out the
mistake that i made.
l.
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I do not have time for this debate now. I am "swamped" with work. I need to get other things done.

Sincerely, Chad. (:^)

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Post by c***@sasktel.net
I do not have time for this debate now. I am "swamped" with work. I
need to get other things done.

not a problem man.

l.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Post by c***@sasktel.net
(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions
enclosed by {}, and ~ for omissions.)

But from a private reply from Luke (quoted next below), I guess that we
have SOME more time.

~~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

ok, so i've learned that crowdsupply is taking preorders from the end
date of the campaign, for a second batch which will be after the first
one is delivered. exact dates TBD, i'll need to see how things go.

But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same time,
and each factory produces it's things as one batch?

~~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
yes, the factory produces its things in one batch: the setup and
teardown costs (equipment, wasted materials) are pretty much the same
no matter how many "things" are made. so if you want one "thing"
made, it will cost you.... $USD 1,200. if you want *five* "things"
made, it will cost you $1700 (around $340 each). but if you want a
*thousand* made, they're $30 each.
... exactly the same "thing", exactly the same factory... exactly the
same cost to set up, exactly the same cost to clean up afterwards.
so the more you can get made at once, the less they cost. very simple.

So is it correct that the second batch of backers, must pay SOON ENOUGH that you can, at ONE
time, pay the factory to, in the same set-up, produce for BOTH the FIRST backers AND the SECOND backers?

(Or do the second batch of backers, have to, sadly, wait until they have ordered 150,000.00
worth, before their parts start to get produced?)

Eagerly,
Chad. (:^)

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Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
so the more you can get made at once, the less they cost. very simple.

So is it correct that the second batch of backers, must pay SOON ENOUGH
that you can, at ONE time, pay the factory to, in the same set-up, produce
for BOTH the FIRST backers AND the SECOND backers?
(Or do the second batch of backers, have to, sadly, wait until they have
ordered 150,000.00 worth, before their parts start to get produced?)

i'm thinking about it (as in, it's a really good question) that i'm
wrestling with. there's 800 EOMA68-A20 computer cards pledged for,
for example, in this first batch. should i order 200 more, make it
1,000, because the cost of 1,000 will be even lower cost than ordering
800?

bear in mind that the extra 200 is going to have to come out of the
"spare" budget (which is only around $50k and needs to pay for tons of
other things).

if we leave it until afterwards, and the preorders from the second
batch is less, it'll be more expensive both for the first batch *and*
the second batch. now, we did make the estimates based on a MOQ of
250, so in *theory* it should be okay...

or, should i take on a contract that pays me $80k+ / yr, such that i
can then *pay* other people to do the work, and invest some of it in
extra stock, such that it really doesn't matter?

huge number of questions and at some point in the very near future
i'll just have to make a decision and go with it.

l.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i'm thinking about it (as in, it's a really good question) that i'm
wrestling with. there's 800 EOMA68-A20 computer cards pledged for,
for example, in this first batch. should i order 200 more, make it
1,000, because the cost of 1,000 will be even lower cost than ordering
800?

Are there any differences in the way the product must be represented (and is
regulated by laws/contracts) between the fulfilment of pledges/pre-orders and
with regard to the matter of selling off excess stock?

I follow another crowd-funding campaign where manufacturing may have been done
at levels to fulfil both pledges and orders from retailers, but then I start
to wonder about things like warranties (and such): a "pledger" is getting a
reward, but a customer through a retailer is getting a purchase that is
presumably regulated rather differently.

Maybe excess units are required to cover a small proportion of units that
might fail for unforeseen reasons, where you might offer to replace units at
your discretion.

[...]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
huge number of questions and at some point in the very near future
i'll just have to make a decision and go with it.

Maybe another update or two to indicate some kind of deadline might solve this
dilemma for you.

Paul

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Post by Paul Boddie

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i'm thinking about it (as in, it's a really good question) that i'm
wrestling with. there's 800 EOMA68-A20 computer cards pledged for,
for example, in this first batch. should i order 200 more, make it
1,000, because the cost of 1,000 will be even lower cost than ordering
800?

Are there any differences in the way the product must be represented (and is
regulated by laws/contracts) between the fulfilment of pledges/pre-orders and
with regard to the matter of selling off excess stock?

quite probably! certainly, pledges are "gifts" - there's no
warranty, there's no contract of sale, they're *definitely* not
"orders". that's very very important even in light of the fact that
i'm here on a 90-day visa waiver! customs declaration *specifically*
asked, "are you bringing in product for the solicitation of orders"
and the *only* reason i was able to say *NO* to that was precisely
because this is a gift-economy-based crowd-funding campaign.

Post by Paul Boddie
I follow another crowd-funding campaign where manufacturing may have been done
at levels to fulfil both pledges and orders from retailers, but then I start
to wonder about things like warranties (and such): a "pledger" is getting a
reward, but a customer through a retailer is getting a purchase that is
presumably regulated rather differently.

yeahyeah. the moment that for example chris, my sponsor, starts
*selling* through *his* web site (which he can now do as the contract
period with crowdsupply is over), that *definitely* qualifies as
"sales"

Post by Paul Boddie
Maybe excess units are required to cover a small proportion of units that
might fail for unforeseen reasons, where you might offer to replace units at
your discretion.

good point.

Post by Paul Boddie
[...]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
huge number of questions and at some point in the very near future
i'll just have to make a decision and go with it.

Maybe another update or two to indicate some kind of deadline might solve this
dilemma for you.

... or i could just wing it :) no, can't do that - too much involved
(and it would jeapordise / risk the goal of reaching mass-volume
levels).

i'll start to put in costs / quotes as they come in, and then all this
can be assessed properly.

l.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
certainly, pledges are "gifts" - there's no
warranty, there's no contract of sale, they're *definitely* not
"orders". that's very very important even in light of the fact that
i'm here on a 90-day visa waiver! customs declaration *specifically*
asked, "are you bringing in product for the solicitation of orders"
and the *only* reason i was able to say *NO* to that was precisely
because this is a gift-economy-based crowd-funding campaign.

I don't know anything about visa waivers, but it seems worth pointing
out that Crowd Supply pledges do not appear to be gifts. They are
covered by a contract: https://www.crowdsupply.com/terms-of-use

It says, among other things:



"Creator: a User responsible for running a Campaign, filling Pre-orders,
or otherwise supplying products for commercial sale. [...]

A Creator is required to fulfill all Premiums of a Creator’s successful
Campaign or refund Pledges to any Backer whose Premium the Creator does
not or cannot fulfill.

A Creator may cancel and refund a Backer’s Pledge at any time and for
any reason, and, in so doing, is not required to fulfill the Premium."



IANAL, but that looks quite a lot like a contract of sale to me.


Also, Crowd Supply definitely promotes itself as a store:

https://blog.crowdsupply.com/2013/03/04/crowd-supply-is-a-store/

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/12/09/crowd-supply-is-succeeding-where-kickstarter-and-indiegogo-are-failing-miserably/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Paul Boddie
I follow another crowd-funding campaign where manufacturing may have been done
at levels to fulfil both pledges and orders from retailers, but then I start
to wonder about things like warranties (and such): a "pledger" is getting a
reward, but a customer through a retailer is getting a purchase that is
presumably regulated rather differently.

yeahyeah. the moment that for example chris, my sponsor, starts
*selling* through *his* web site (which he can now do as the contract
period with crowdsupply is over), that *definitely* qualifies as
"sales"

Now that the crowd-funding period is over, Crowd Supply has switched to
offering pre-orders, which are distinct from pledges under the terms
linked above. I have no idea what regulatory implications that has, if any.

Oddly, the wording around pre-orders seems to be more lax than the
wording around pledges. Perhaps an oversight on the part of Crowd Supply
or whoever drafted their terms of use.


- spk

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On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
certainly, pledges are "gifts" - there's no
warranty, there's no contract of sale, they're *definitely* not
"orders". that's very very important even in light of the fact that
i'm here on a 90-day visa waiver! customs declaration *specifically*
asked, "are you bringing in product for the solicitation of orders"
and the *only* reason i was able to say *NO* to that was precisely
because this is a gift-economy-based crowd-funding campaign.

I don't know anything about visa waivers, but it seems worth pointing
out that Crowd Supply pledges do not appear to be gifts. They are
covered by a contract: https://www.crowdsupply.com/terms-of-use
"Creator: a User responsible for running a Campaign, filling Pre-orders,
or otherwise supplying products for commercial sale. [...]
A Creator is required to fulfill all Premiums of a Creator’s successful
Campaign or refund Pledges to any Backer whose Premium the Creator does
not or cannot fulfill.

looks reasonable to me... so that people don't "run away" with the
money, basically!

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
IANAL, but that looks quite a lot like a contract of sale to me.

a contract of sale has very very specific terms which involve things
like "warranties", "WEEE Directives" and so on.

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
https://blog.crowdsupply.com/2013/03/04/crowd-supply-is-a-store/

that's *after* the crowdfunding campaign... and it's run *by
crowdsupply* - not by the backers and not by the campaign creators.

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
Now that the crowd-funding period is over, Crowd Supply has switched to
offering pre-orders, which are distinct from pledges under the terms
linked above. I have no idea what regulatory implications that has, if any.

they're sold by crowdsupply - not by me. crowdsupply will be
ordering a batch of units (from me). i will be *crowdsupply's*
supplier (for fulfilling *their* preorders). any "contracts of sale"
- for the preorders and for the preorders only - will be with
*crowdsupply* (not me).

l.

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[Sam Pablo Kuper]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"Creator: a User responsible for running a Campaign, filling Pre-orders,
or otherwise supplying products for commercial sale. [...]
A Creator is required to fulfill all Premiums of a Creator’s successful
Campaign or refund Pledges to any Backer whose Premium the Creator does
not or cannot fulfill.

looks reasonable to me... so that people don't "run away" with the
money, basically!

Right. It's a basic contract of sale: the seller must provide the goods
that have been paid for, or return the payment.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
IANAL, but that looks quite a lot like a contract of sale to me.

a contract of sale has very very specific terms which involve things
like "warranties", "WEEE Directives" and so on.

IIUC, statutes may impose such requirements on sellers, depending upon
the jurisdiction, nature of the product, etc. But such statutory
requirements do not form part of the contract of sale: they simply apply
to specified parties to contracts of sale.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
https://blog.crowdsupply.com/2013/03/04/crowd-supply-is-a-store/

that's *after* the crowdfunding campaign... and it's run *by
crowdsupply* - not by the backers and not by the campaign creators.

The idea of Crowd Supply as a store includes the crowd-funding aspect of
Crowd Supply, as the other article I linked makes clear:

"In late 2012, Kickstarter began its 'this is not a store' rhetoric. ...
It was that very blog post that encouraged Crowd Supply to make its
move. Six months later, it had its first blog post titled 'Crowd Supply
is a Store.'

In an instant, Crowd Supply knew what it was, and had to be. It was
clear then, just as it is now, that people who backed projects wanted
products, not promises. [Crowd Supply] manages how products are
delivered to backers."

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/12/09/crowd-supply-is-succeeding-where-kickstarter-and-indiegogo-are-failing-miserably/

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
Now that the crowd-funding period is over, Crowd Supply has switched to
offering pre-orders, which are distinct from pledges under the terms
linked above. I have no idea what regulatory implications that has, if any.

they're sold by crowdsupply - not by me. crowdsupply will be
ordering a batch of units (from me). i will be *crowdsupply's*
supplier (for fulfilling *their* preorders). any "contracts of sale"
- for the preorders and for the preorders only - will be with
*crowdsupply* (not me).

The terms state that pre-orders *are* contracts between Creators and
Users, and that they are *not* contracts with Crowd Supply:

"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."

Seems pretty clear to me :)

You might have been thinking of Crowd Supply's third option under the
"Summary of Service" heading:

"Customers can purchase a Creator’s in-stock products via an online
retail transaction."

IIUC, that option would only arise if at some point - and for any reason
- Crowd Supply has more units in stock than have been accounted for by
pledges or pre-orders. As the units haven't yet been manufactured, this
option cannot yet have arisen.

- spk

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On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".

l.

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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".
l.

Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like "MiniFree" or "Kano" seem
to or seemed to? At least for shipping TO addresses outside of the "US"?

Eagerly, Chad. (:^)


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Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
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On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".
l.

Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like
"MiniFree" or "Kano" seem to or seemed to? At least for shipping TO
addresses outside of the "US"?

we need to work out if it's cheaper to ship everything first to the
US and then outwards from there (because there's no customs duty, just
a one-off "fee" that pales into insignificance). certainly, sea
freight (which is by volume) would be a lot lower than air freight
(which is by weight).

i've been trusting the amounts that both chris and joshua
independently use: they're both experienced at this. me, i'm just
getting my head down into the PCBs etc. for now - logistics comes
later.

l.

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~~~~~
~~~~~
~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

On ~~, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".
l.

Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like
"MiniFree" or "Kano" seem to or seemed to? At least for shipping TO
addresses outside of the "US"?

we need to work out if it's cheaper to ship everything first to the
US and then outwards from there (because there's no customs duty, just
a one-off "fee" that pales into insignificance). certainly, sea
freight (which is by volume) would be a lot lower than air freight
(which is by weight).
i've been trusting the amounts that both chris and joshua
independently use: they're both experienced at this. me, i'm just
getting my head down into the PCBs etc. for now - logistics comes
later.
l.

~~~~~~
I have been aiming, to "pre-order" in the next few days.
But, how likely, do you think, shall you be able to FILL "pre-orders"?
If how you will respond to "pre-ordering" is "up in the air", then me "pre-ordering" now, might
result in hassle for both of us, rather than be of benefit to both of us.
So then perhaps I should wait until a decision has been made?

Eagerly, Chad. (:^)

_______________________________________________
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

~~~~~
~~~~~
~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

On ~~, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".
l.

Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like
"MiniFree" or "Kano" seem to or seemed to? At least for shipping TO
addresses outside of the "US"?

we need to work out if it's cheaper to ship everything first to the
US and then outwards from there (because there's no customs duty, just
a one-off "fee" that pales into insignificance). certainly, sea
freight (which is by volume) would be a lot lower than air freight
(which is by weight).
i've been trusting the amounts that both chris and joshua
independently use: they're both experienced at this. me, i'm just
getting my head down into the PCBs etc. for now - logistics comes
later.
l.

~~~~~~
I have been aiming, to "pre-order" in the next few days.
But, how likely, do you think, shall you be able to FILL "pre-orders"?
If how you will respond to "pre-ordering" is "up in the air", then me
"pre-ordering" now, might result in hassle for both of us, rather than be of
benefit to both of us.

right. this is an open project: it's not like a "profit maximising
company" where they do their absolute best to hide absolutely
everything except the "positive marketing messages" such as "we're now
shipping!!!! so you can trust us!!!! give us yer money!!!!"

ordinarily, if an "employee" said "i don't know" it wouldn't matter,
would it? you'd *never know* that he'd said "i don't know", or that
the manager who had been asked to find out had to go back the boss and
say "we don't know", would you?

here's the thing: *everybudy* doesn't really "know" until it actually
happens. you "don't know" if there's going to be an earthquake in
Taiwan which destroys the foundries (this happened a few years ago),
or some floods or a fire will destroy the DDR RAM factories (which
also happened a few years ago), or the factory where things are being
manufactured might have a fire (as happened with the NexDock - it
started in the factory next door and spread, destroying 50% of the
stock).

to make judgements based on these kinds of things, where you *don't
know* if they're going to happen or not - is part and parcel of
life... *not* just this campaign.

bottom line, it's up to you to decide. just be aware that you're
getting an honest glimpse into a world you've never seen before, in
just the same way that the openpandora and openmoko operated a decade
ago.

l.

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@file

[c***@sasktel.net]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

~~~~~
~~~~~
~~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

On ~~, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are

~~~~

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Post by c***@sasktel.net

Post by Sam Pablo Kuper
Seems pretty clear to me :)

hmm.... have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".
l.

Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like
"MiniFree" or "Kano" seem to or seemed to? At least for shipping TO
addresses outside of the "US"?

we need to work out if it's cheaper to ship everything first to the
US and then outwards from there (because there's no customs duty, just
a one-off "fee" that pales into insignificance). certainly, sea
freight (which is by volume) would be a lot lower than air freight
(which is by weight).
i've been trusting the amounts that both chris and joshua
independently use: they're both experienced at this. me, i'm just
getting my head down into the PCBs etc. for now - logistics comes
later.
l.

~~~~~~
I have been aiming, to "pre-order" in the next few days.
But, how likely, do you think, shall you be able to FILL "pre-orders"?
If how you will respond to "pre-ordering" is "up in the air", then me
"pre-ordering" now, might result in hassle for both of us, rather than be of
benefit to both of us.

right. this is an open project: it's not like a "profit maximising
company" where they do their absolute best to hide absolutely
everything except the "positive marketing messages" such as "we're now
shipping!!!! so you can trust us!!!! give us yer money!!!!"
ordinarily, if an "employee" said "i don't know" it wouldn't matter,
would it? you'd *never know* that he'd said "i don't know", or that
the manager who had been asked to find out had to go back the boss and
say "we don't know", would you?
here's the thing: *everybudy* doesn't really "know" until it actually
happens. you "don't know" if there's going to be an earthquake in
Taiwan which destroys the foundries (this happened a few years ago),
or some floods or a fire will destroy the DDR RAM factories (which
also happened a few years ago), or the factory where things are being
manufactured might have a fire (as happened with the NexDock - it
started in the factory next door and spread, destroying 50% of the
stock).
to make judgements based on these kinds of things, where you *don't
know* if they're going to happen or not - is part and parcel of
life... *not* just this campaign.
bottom line, it's up to you to decide. just be aware that you're
getting an honest glimpse into a world you've never seen before, in
just the same way that the openpandora and openmoko operated a decade
ago.
l.

I did not really mean to ask you to predict the likelihood of an earth-quake or flood or fire, or
things which are generally relevant to life rather than specifically relevant to this campaign.
I was not trying to get you to promise something which you cannot thoughtfully promise. I
understand being sensitive to not over-promising, in the position which you are in. I myself try to
avoid over-promising. And I aim to give others reasonable and compassionate latitude in regard to
anything which they word as a promise to me.

The context for my question, was the discussion between thee and Sam Kuper, as to "Crowd
Supply's" terms for pledges and for pre-orders. Thou ended up seeming to admit to having
mis-understood regarding pre-orders, and to be having some kind of "second thoughts" regarding
pre-orders, as shown in the top quotes of this "email" and my previous "email". I deliberately
included those quotes now and previously. Because they were relevant "background" to my question.

I only meant to ask a question as to your plans, and as to whether you were re-considering some
one or more plans. I guess that I should have asked, "how likely will" instead of "shall".

(a) Are you considering suspending pre-orders?
If so, then perhaps I might as well wait, until that decision is made in one direction or another.

(b) "Would" it help you at all, in your decision-making (such as whether to get the factory to
make 200 more cards), if I pre-"order" (it'd be at least 1 computer-card and at least 1 "PFY"
lap-top-kit) as soon as I am ready?

Eagerly,
Chad. (:^)

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arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by c***@sasktel.net
I did not really mean to ask you to predict the likelihood of an
earth-quake or flood or fire, or things which are generally relevant to life
rather than specifically relevant to this campaign.
I was not trying to get you to promise something which you cannot
thoughtfully promise. I understand being sensitive to not over-promising,
in the position which you are in. I myself try to avoid over-promising.
And I aim to give others reasonable and compassionate latitude in regard to
anything which they word as a promise to me.

i didn't read - and still haven't read (and am not going to read) -
the terms and conditions: instead i've been relying on *other people*
to tell me what the deal is. i've been getting on with the job of
getting things done, and i'm trusting *other people* to tell me what
the deal is.

i need to get on with the job of completing the PCB CAD designs, and
finding somewhere to live, and communicating with the factory, and
sorting out china visas, and a ton of other things.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
The context for my question, was the discussion between thee and Sam
Kuper, as to "Crowd Supply's" terms for pledges and for pre-orders. Thou
ended up seeming to admit to having mis-understood regarding pre-orders, and
to be having some kind of "second thoughts" regarding pre-orders, as shown
in the top quotes of this "email" and my previous "email". I deliberately
included those quotes now and previously. Because they were relevant
"background" to my question.

i haven't got time. sorry. i have to be out of this hotel, get
photos, get the form filled in for the china visa, find somewhere to
put 120kg worth of luggage, all in the next 2 hours.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
I only meant to ask a question as to your plans, and as to whether you
were re-considering some one or more plans. I guess that I should have
asked, "how likely will" instead of "shall".

i don't know.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
(a) Are you considering suspending pre-orders?

no. preorders increase dramatically when the first batch starts shipping.

Post by c***@sasktel.net
(b) "Would" it help you at all, in your decision-making (such as whether
to get the factory to make 200 more cards), if I pre-"order" (it'd be at
least 1 computer-card and at least 1 "PFY" lap-top-kit) as soon as I am
ready?

one person, no. 200 people, yes. too early to tell yet.

l.

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[Wookey]

I have been reading on "MLC NAnd", and it seems that now I better
understand the problem of corruption-on-read.

I have some experience of NAND due to working on YAFFS a few years
ago. My info may be slightly out of date as NAND has got even fatter
in the last few years.

(a) How common is it for corruption-on-read to occur with "MLC NAnd"
(like by something as basic as reads done by the built-in "ROM"
"boot"-loader)?
(Perhaps the answer is like "N % probability that one or more of the [1
to 4] bits in a cell, shall wrongly change it's logical value, after X reads
of one or more pages in the same block, Y writes to one or more pages in the
same block, and Z erases of the block".)
At first I was thinking that the FIRST time data (mini "boot"-loader or
otherwise) is read from the "NAnd", corruption might likely occur.
But perhaps this corruption-on-read naturally happens ONLY after many
reads or writes in a block and many erases of a block.
So how common is it?

'Rare'. Corruption-on-read (called 'read disturb' in the literature)
will only happen after there have been quite a few reads aligned on
just the 'wrong' page. 20,000 or so might do it in modern
MLC. write-disturb is much more likely than read-disturb. So each read
that energises the same 'row' in the flash layout increases the error
potential a tiny amount. Each write increases it quite a lot more (but
in modern flash with a flash-aware filesystem you only ever write a
page once before erasing it so this is not an issue).

Bits are 'refreshed' (and the probabilities of error reset) when the
bits in question are rewritten. So a really smart flash filesystem
will ensure that 'old' data that is near pages that have been read a
lot, gets moved.

(b) Would the "MLC NAnd" planned in the computer-cards via "Crowd
Supply", have Error-Correction Codes?

yes. All NAND-flash has this otherwise it would be uselessly unreliable.

(c) If so, then does whatever reads the "NAnd" on "booting" (I guess it
is called the "eGON boot-ROM"), know that it should (and know how to) use
those "ECCs", to correct errors (if any) which it encounters when trying to
start the "booting" process, so that it loads the correct original bits of
the "boot"-loader ("minimalist" or otherwise)?

yes. all NAND reads check the ECC.

The YAFFS site has a load of info on the issue of NAND
(un)reliability, and what it does to manage/mitigate it:
http://yaffs.net/documents/yaffs-nand-flash-failure-mitigation
Specifically:
http://yaffs.net/documents/yaffs-nand-flash-failure-mitigation#Read_disturb

HTH

Wookey

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

wookey just wanted to say thank you for responding here.
l.

Post by Wookey

I have been reading on "MLC NAnd", and it seems that now I better
understand the problem of corruption-on-read.

I have some experience of NAND due to working on YAFFS a few years
ago. My info may be slightly out of date as NAND has got even fatter
in the last few years.

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