Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] Housing idea: screenless laptop
Matt Campbell
2016-09-11 20:31:15 UTC
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Hi,

It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as
Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad
would be quite convenient. And if this housing used the same battery as
the regular laptop housing, it would last longer because there's no screen.

To the engineers on the list, how difficult would it be to modify the
current laptop housing to remove the screen and touchpad? I suppose
there are two ways to go about removing the touchpad: either it could
just be replaced with empty space, or the keyboard could be moved to the
front. In the latter case, how much smaller could the housing be made
without removing anything inside (battery, space for a USB dongle, etc.)?

Matt

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-09-12 02:50:09 UTC
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Post by Matt Campbell
Hi,
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as
Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would
be quite convenient.
and a lot thinner. hmmm...
Post by Matt Campbell
And if this housing used the same battery as the
regular laptop housing, it would last longer because there's no screen.
yeah it would. about twice as long.
Post by Matt Campbell
To the engineers on the list, how difficult would it be to modify the
current laptop housing to remove the screen and touchpad?
don't connect the cable, make a couple of fillers for the hinge holes
and something to cover the touchpanel 3d-printed - that's about...
6-10 days of work.
Post by Matt Campbell
I suppose there
are two ways to go about removing the touchpad: either it could just be
replaced with empty space,
if you wanted to just put a blanking plate across it you could knock
something up (and glue it in place) in an hour or so. actually
redoing the parts to *fit* a blanking plate - several days.
Post by Matt Campbell
or the keyboard could be moved to the front.
that's a good 3-5 weeks of work.... no wait.... possibly a lot more
than that. there are about eight separate physical parts that would
need to be redesigned, and PCB2 might need redesigning as well.
Post by Matt Campbell
In
the latter case, how much smaller could the housing be made without removing
anything inside (battery, space for a USB dongle, etc.)?
anything is possible if you have enough time. PCB3 is right at the
front, in front of the battery: there's nowhere else to fit it on the
right-hand side: there's no space to "stack" them one above the other,
and the entire RHS that's not taken up by battery (160mm x 130mm x
6mm) is taken up with PCB3 (80mm x 35mm x 1.5mm with 6mm high
components).

you could move it to the LHS but that would require a total redesign
of PCB3 (2 months work)

you would also lose space in the compartment on the LHS.

answer: absolutely no space could be saved. at all.

now, if you could source a smaller battery that would be a different
matter for the RHS, but PCB1 still is at the limit taking up the
entire LHS with the 3x USB2 "dogleg", so now you'd need to redesign
PCB1.

basically it's an adjustment of virtually every single part (PCBs and
casework), which is several months work. it's a new product in other
words.

much better to just leave everything as-is and just not have the
screen. converting the EOMA68 RGB/TTL output to a standard HDMI
output (with a TFP401) would be a neat addition, though. but that
would be an alteration of PCB1 which would be... mm.... 3-4 weeks to
first prototype.

l.

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Matt Campbell
2016-09-12 13:02:03 UTC
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Thanks, Luke, for the information on how time consuming the
modifications would be.

And I think Benson is right that it wouldn't be worth the trouble to
remove the touchpad.

Matt

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Vincent Legoll
2016-09-12 06:06:02 UTC
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All that is also assuming that the laptop won't be shared with someone
able to use a display

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Benson Mitchell
Post by Matt Campbell
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as
Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would
be quite convenient.
I don't know anyone in that situation personally, but it's not clear
to me that the touchpad should go. Sure, using it for pointing input
is unhelpful with no screen, but I would expect it could still be
useful for gesture input, right?
Seems there's not much benefit from removing the touchpad, as it
doesn't buy you any space savings, and it should have pretty small
impact on battery life compared to the screen. (Especially if you can
run it as input without powering the touchpad display -- I assume this
is possible, but haven't really looked.) So I wonder if even a little
usefulness for gesture input means it should stay.
Benson
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Matt Campbell
2016-09-12 15:33:52 UTC
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Post by Vincent Legoll
All that is also assuming that the laptop won't be shared with someone
able to use a display
That's a valid point. And for organizations that purchase several
laptops, such as schools providing laptops to their students or
businesses providing them to employees, it's probably more economical to
purchase just one model.

Your point brings to my mind a subject of some controversy within the
blind community itself. If you all will pardon a digression, I think
this will serve as yet another minor demonstration of the potential
benefits of a modular computer over the typical monolithic approach:

For about three decades now, there have been PDAs designed specifically
for blind people. These usually have braille keyboards, though some have
QWERTY keyboards, and some models also have a refreshable braille
display (using pins that move up and down as the braille dots). These
devices have been especially useful for blind students in the classroom;
in fact, they're often called "note-takers" because of this killer
application.

As you might expect, these devices have been monolithic designs, and
they have tended to fall behind mainstream technology. They're also
expensive, as in $1000 or more. One semi-recent example with which I'm
particularly familiar was the LevelStar Icon, first released in 2007 and
discontinued around 2011. It was based on a ~500 MHz ARM processor
(using the ARMv5 instruction set with no hardware floating point). Just
two and a half years after the original release (judging by the hardware
in the iPhone 3GS in mid-2009), that processor was thoroughly obsolete.
But what could be done? The device wasn't upgradeable, and it was
expensive to boot (around $1400 for the base unit), because of the
relatively small target user base. It didn't help that the software
platform was completely proprietary (albeit built on embedded Linux),
and the web browser in particular didn't keep up. The company moved on
to a new product based on Android (ultimately brought to market as the
APH Braille Plus second generation), which was eventually discontinued
in 2015.

In the past 8 years or so, in response to the cost of these specialized
devices and their tendency to fall behind the mainstream, there has been
a backlash against these devices in the blind community. Some people
refer to these devices as "blind ghetto" products. For an explanation of
the controversy (in the context of an opinion piece opposing the use of
that phrase), see this blog post:

http://mosen.org/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-blind-ghetto-product/

Today, there are several braille displays (that category of device also
typically includes a braille keyboard) which can pair with a PC or
mobile device via Bluetooth. But that kind of setup requires two
devices, one of which is defined largely by a screen that is useless to
the target user. Yes, in theory, one can pair such a braille device to
the phone that they probably already have in their pocket, and use that
for note-taking, document preparation, etc. But Mr. Mosen pointed out in
the blog post referenced above that iOS isn't really suitable as a
replacement for the PC for typical office tasks. And I'm quite sure that
Android is no better. Several months ago, I heard about an interesting
product called the ElitaBraille (no official English-language web page
that I'm aware of), which is basically an Atom-based PC that is designed
to house a specific model of braille display/keyboard.

BUT, all of this assumes the typical monolithic approach to designing a
portable computer, whatever one chooses to call it and whatever form
factor it takes. What if one of the vendors in this space could be
persuaded to design an EOMA68 computer housing with a braille keyboard
and display, and a less expensive one with just a braille keyboard? Some
of these vendors are still making and selling complete portable
computers, still even calling them note-takers; one current example is
the BrailleNote Touch
(http://www.humanware.com/microsite/bntouch/index.php). So they might
not be keen on the open, modular approach. But at least one prominent
braille display vendor seems to have given up on the note-taker category
of products.

Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch
tablets for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a
computer housing that's optimized for the way blind people work. A
housing with a braille keyboard would probably be optimal, but even just
removing the screen from the 15.6" laptop housing, which is where this
thread started, would be a modest improvement.

I suspect, though, that this wish is currently rather quixotic on my
part. The reality is that, as I understand it, even the most accessible
GNU/Linux desktop environment for a blind person (probably GNOME 3 on a
machine with 3D acceleration, or MATE on one without) leaves much to be
desired in comparison to Windows or Mac. One of my friends is a blind
programmer who runs GNU/Linux as his primary desktop OS. He told me that
while it works for him, he thinks it wouldn't be the best choice for
most blind people wanting to use their computers for everyday tasks. I
don't know what the specific problems are; I'll have to spend some time
using GNOME or MATE with the Orca screen reader myself and find out.
Anyway, I'm guessing most blind computer users wouldn't be interested in
a computer that can only run GNU/Linux, even if the form factor,
keyboard, and display (or lack thereof) are perfectly optimized for
them. The appeal of a 15.6" laptop housing with the screen removed would
probably be even less, unless the extended battery life turns out to be
a killer feature and someone can put in the time to make the software
adequately usable for common tasks.

Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all
I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve
GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some
interest to some people on this list.

Matt

P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I'm legally blind myself, but with
enough sight to read a desktop display up close. I use a screen reader
some of the time on my desktop and all the time on my smartphone. I
think I would use a screenless laptop myself for some tasks, but not for
my real work.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-09-13 00:43:30 UTC
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Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch tablets
for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a computer
housing that's optimized for the way blind people work.
actually at this point i'd be more interested in doing a simple
housing for partially-sighted people than i would a 7in tablet. the
reason is that just as you say, it's a specialist community that would
appreciate it more.

the 7in tablet market, people are going to compare an EOMA68 7in
tablet housing against... a mass-produced 7in tablet. they're going
to see the extra cost and the extra thickness, and conclude "that's
utterly rubbish!!!!".

whereas people in the partially-sighted market who are getting
proprietary high-priced crud would be *really grateful* for something
that is clearly a long-term cost-saving investment as opposed to a
throw-away device. they'll go "huh, i can upgrade this later... oh,
and i can transfer the *actual computer* to a bigger device which
someone who *does* have good sight can help me out... or i can
transfer the *actual computer* into a device with a huge LCD on it".

i'm referencing this discussion here on
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/partially_sighted_handheld/
but could i ask you a favour and to fill that in with a bit of the
specs of things that people *actually want* - or if there is some
community that you know of, reach out to them and ask them "what do
you *really* want to have?"
Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all
I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve
GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some interest to
some people on this list.
*yes*.

l.

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Matt Campbell
2016-09-13 02:09:58 UTC
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Hi Luke,

I'm glad you're interested, though at this point, we're clearly talking
about a whole new product, not a simple adaptation of the 15.6" laptop
housing.

If we're talking about a whole new product anyway, I've decided to
maximize the potential portability by basing it on a braille keyboard
rather than a QWERTY one. I've filled out the page you created, and it
explains what I mean. Let me know if this is the kind of information you
want, and what kind of dimensions you think would be feasible for
something with the specs I've outlined.

Matt
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch tablets
for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a computer
housing that's optimized for the way blind people work.
actually at this point i'd be more interested in doing a simple
housing for partially-sighted people than i would a 7in tablet. the
reason is that just as you say, it's a specialist community that would
appreciate it more.
the 7in tablet market, people are going to compare an EOMA68 7in
tablet housing against... a mass-produced 7in tablet. they're going
to see the extra cost and the extra thickness, and conclude "that's
utterly rubbish!!!!".
whereas people in the partially-sighted market who are getting
proprietary high-priced crud would be *really grateful* for something
that is clearly a long-term cost-saving investment as opposed to a
throw-away device. they'll go "huh, i can upgrade this later... oh,
and i can transfer the *actual computer* to a bigger device which
someone who *does* have good sight can help me out... or i can
transfer the *actual computer* into a device with a huge LCD on it".
i'm referencing this discussion here on
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/partially_sighted_handheld/
but could i ask you a favour and to fill that in with a bit of the
specs of things that people *actually want* - or if there is some
community that you know of, reach out to them and ask them "what do
you *really* want to have?"
Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all
I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve
GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some interest to
some people on this list.
*yes*.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-09-13 03:05:57 UTC
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crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Matt Campbell
Hi Luke,
I'm glad you're interested, though at this point, we're clearly talking
about a whole new product, not a simple adaptation of the 15.6" laptop
housing.
If we're talking about a whole new product anyway, I've decided to maximize
the potential portability by basing it on a braille keyboard rather than a
QWERTY one. I've filled out the page you created, and it explains what I
mean. Let me know if this is the kind of information you want, and what kind
of dimensions you think would be feasible for something with the specs I've
outlined.
looks great matt, and really simple. two possible designs, one is
compact but thick (CPU Card slot on *top* of battery) probably 15mm
all-in and size 3.5in x 4.5in or 3in x 5in something like that, the
other layout is CPU card side-by-side with battery, 4.5in x 6in or so
and maybe 9mm thick.

l.

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Matt Campbell
2016-09-13 03:19:09 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
looks great matt, and really simple. two possible designs, one is
compact but thick (CPU Card slot on *top* of battery) probably 15mm
all-in and size 3.5in x 4.5in or 3in x 5in something like that, the
other layout is CPU card side-by-side with battery, 4.5in x 6in or so
and maybe 9mm thick.
I think I'd go for the second design. Then maybe we could add a few
niceties to the keyboard, such as arrow keys or a D-pad.

Matt

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Luke Yelavich
2016-09-13 04:03:38 UTC
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First of all, greetings. I've been subscribed to the list, and prior to that,
spent some time reading list archives, once I found out about the EOMA68
project, which was around 7 or so days prior to the campaign ending. I love
what I've read so far. I've backed the project, and am looking forward to
getting hold of the hardware. :)
I suspect, though, that this wish is currently rather quixotic on my part.
The reality is that, as I understand it, even the most accessible GNU/Linux
desktop environment for a blind person (probably GNOME 3 on a machine with
3D acceleration, or MATE on one without) leaves much to be desired in
comparison to Windows or Mac. One of my friends is a blind programmer who
runs GNU/Linux as his primary desktop OS. He told me that while it works for
him, he thinks it wouldn't be the best choice for most blind people wanting
to use their computers for everyday tasks. I don't know what the specific
problems are; I'll have to spend some time using GNOME or MATE with the Orca
screen reader myself and find out.
The core desktop shells for MATE and GNOME are accessible and usable with the
Orca screen reader, with some rough edges that are fixable. The real rub here
is the tools you need to get work done. Browsing the web is mostly painless,
except for the inevitable sight that doesn't follow the ARIA spec properly,
likely due to spec ambiguities. Email, both with console clients and GUI
clients, well at least one, thunderbird, is doable to. LibreOffice is usable,
at least for writing documents and working with spreadsheets, no idea on
presentations, likely not usable at this point. Working with a calendar is
another of those things that needs accessibility attention.

Luke

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Vincent Legoll
2016-09-13 08:04:43 UTC
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Hello,

Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard,
that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that
as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for
cabling)

This would be cheaper / easier to produce / far more reaching that a specialized
product ? And be reusable between different products, kept when upgrading the
computer part, etc...

WDYT ?

(1) replace by whatever term is appropriate, (IANALanguageL)
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Stefan Monnier
2016-09-13 12:41:13 UTC
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Post by Vincent Legoll
Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard,
that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that
as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for
cabling)
But the user would still need to carry around that keyboard plus
a "standard" computer (I guess it could be a tablet).

On the flip side a "braille EOMA housing" with an EOMA A20 card inside
could be turned into a "dumb USB braille keyboard" via the A20's
OTG port.


Stefan


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Adam Van Ymeren
2016-09-13 12:46:26 UTC
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On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Stefan Monnier
Post by Stefan Monnier
Post by Vincent Legoll
Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard,
that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that
as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for
cabling)
But the user would still need to carry around that keyboard plus
a "standard" computer (I guess it could be a tablet).
On the flip side a "braille EOMA housing" with an EOMA A20 card inside
could be turned into a "dumb USB braille keyboard" via the A20's
OTG port.
Seems like a good use of an EOMA68 passthrough card. If you're not
using the chassis to house a computer card, put a passthrough card in
that exposes the keyboard as a USB port.
Post by Stefan Monnier
Stefan
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