[Arm-netbook] OT: The U.S. Needs to Stop Lecturing the Rest of the World About Internet Values

[Jonathan Frederickson]

Actually, you don’t have to imagine it. In 2011, two years after
President Obama’s town hall meeting with future Chinese leaders in
Shanghai, the state-run newspaper China People’s Daily editorialized
about the United States’ deployment of shadow networks in authoritarian
countries: “The US State Department has carefully framed its support of
such projects as promoting free speech and human rights, but it is clear
that the policy is aimed at destabilizing national governments.” It
called Tor—software that helps people mask their location—“a weapon in a
covert cyber war intended to maintain the US’ global dominance.”
"

LOL teaching to population that the tool that helps them is in fact the
enemy, classic. the us funded tor cus a sub department needed such a
tool too. while other departments hate it :)

Yeah. I think this speaks to just how hard it is to see different
perspectives, even on the internet where there are (in theory) no
borders. As a US citizen it's clear to me that politicians here are
wary of privacy-preserving technologies like Tor. (And PGP and OTR -
hello crypto wars!) Overseas maybe that's less apparent.

Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US
government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's
more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@f

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Jonathan Frederickson

Post by Jonathan Frederickson
Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US
government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's
more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.

very much so, i feel. in essence: no one size fits all, and now we
see even emerging countries are beginning to wake up to the massive
over-reach and destruction of sovereignty that the U.S. has been
undertaking for decades. the key point of the fascinating and rather
long article [1] is that various small countries are viewing U.S.
diplomatic and political efforts finally for what it is: extremist
imperialist domination. unfortunately they're not the only country
that's historically manipulated entire [small] countries, but the
point is we kiiinda expect it to *be* history... not still happening
*right now*.

now, i'm not one for just "complaining": there's enough of that crap
going on already. i very much like to also suggest actual solutions,
and in this instance there happens to be a perfect fit: look up
someone called "robert david steele". there's an extremely good
article about him in 2014 by the guardian [2]. he started the "open
source intelligence" movement. a quote:

Today’s capitalism, he argues, is inherently predatory and destructive:

“Over the course of the last centuries, the commons was fenced, and
everything from agriculture to water was commoditised without regard
to the true cost in non-renewable resources. Human beings, who had
spent centuries evolving away from slavery, were re-commoditised by
the Industrial Era.”

huh. how about that. someone else who recognises that "employment"
is nothing more than a rebadged, re-introduced form of slavery. don't
believe me? if you're a software engineer actually READ your
employment contract. paying particular attention to the intelligence
enslavement clauses. the ones that say that your employer owns
absolutely everything that you do, think and say. if it wasn't
enslavement, you would be REWARDED in direct proportion to the value
of the work that you provide. you don't: you get paid a quotes fair
wage quotes. fuck off if you actually want *shock horror* shares in
the company!

yyeah....

holy fuck i had no idea: "the west supports 42 of 44 [world] dictators".


[1] http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/09/philippines-triggers-asian-tectonic-shift-away-from-us/
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-source-revolution-conquer-one-percent-cia-spy

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachm

[Eric Duhamel]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Jonathan Frederickson

Post by Jonathan Frederickson
Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US
government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's
more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.

very much so, i feel. in essence: no one size fits all, and now we
see even emerging countries are beginning to wake up to the massive
over-reach and destruction of sovereignty that the U.S. has been
undertaking for decades. the key point of the fascinating and rather
long article [1] is that various small countries are viewing U.S.
diplomatic and political efforts finally for what it is: extremist
imperialist domination. unfortunately they're not the only country
that's historically manipulated entire [small] countries, but the
point is we kiiinda expect it to *be* history... not still happening
*right now*.

I'm finding this perspective quite enlightening. From inside the US, although a lot of us know we are propagandized and foreign policy is full of ulterior motives, it's not often one considers the opposite view as a citizen of another country.

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
now, i'm not one for just "complaining": there's enough of that crap
going on already. i very much like to also suggest actual solutions,
and in this instance there happens to be a perfect fit: look up
someone called "robert david steele". there's an extremely good
article about him in 2014 by the guardian [2]. he started the "open
“Over the course of the last centuries, the commons was fenced, and
everything from agriculture to water was commoditised without regard
to the true cost in non-renewable resources. Human beings, who had
spent centuries evolving away from slavery, were re-commoditised by
the Industrial Era.”
huh. how about that. someone else who recognises that "employment"
is nothing more than a rebadged, re-introduced form of slavery. don't
believe me? if you're a software engineer actually READ your
employment contract. paying particular attention to the intelligence
enslavement clauses. the ones that say that your employer owns
absolutely everything that you do, think and say. if it wasn't
enslavement, you would be REWARDED in direct proportion to the value
of the work that you provide. you don't: you get paid a quotes fair
wage quotes. fuck off if you actually want *shock horror* shares in
the company!

There's a zen-slap for me. I'm a wage-slave and so is nearly everyone around me.

[FaTony]

Furthermore,
much of the Chinese and Russian political class believe the West’s
insistence on democracy and human rights is not merely distasteful and
unnecessary, but a concerted way to weaken and destabilize them.

Here's a view from inside of Russia. Russian TV is full of anti-west
propaganda. Every day I hear ppl discussing how some bad stuff is
happening in US, Europe or Ukraine and how Russian patriotism and
Orthodox Church are the foundation upon which you should live.

But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares gets
sued, arrested, tortured or killed. Russian authorities use a blacklist
of sites and do DPI to make sure that nobody will find a way to
opposition sites that bring up Russian issues. They also have the legal
capacity to store all internet traffic for 6 months.

Nowadays, about 90% of my traffic goes through Tor or VPN because
there's simply no other way to get information.

But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying to
survive and not die of starvation. There is no hope in fixing this from
the inside, Russia as a country has no future. NATO should invade and
grab all the western territories while China will surely grab Siberia.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by FaTony
But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying to
survive and not die of starvation. There is no hope in fixing this from
the inside, Russia as a country has no future. NATO should invade and
grab all the western territories while China will surely grab Siberia.

you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it
would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david
steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption,
just as much as anywhere.

he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE*
buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed.
do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is
always hope.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to

[FaTony]

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it
would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david
steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption,
just as much as anywhere.
he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE*
buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed.
do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is
always hope.
l.

It would require the average Joe to be able to see beyond his nose. I
had to convince my parents and friends to vote. Half of them didn't care
and the other half didn't think their vote matters. The latter is mostly
true as elections are almost completely rigged and there is now a
popular meme "146%" because that is a total amount of votes if you add
all parties together according to a federal TV report.

There was one notable exception. Alexey Navalny was running for a mayor
of Moscow and got the 2nd place with ~20% votes. After that, he was
quickly arrested and was about to get a prison sentence but managed to
avoid it. But his brother didn't though, he's still in prison.

[FaTony]

Here's what peaceful protest gives you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ildar_Dadin
This guy can die any day now.

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by FaTony

Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it
would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david
steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption,
just as much as anywhere.
he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE*
buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed.
do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is
always hope.
l.

It would require the average Joe to be able to see beyond his nose.

robert david steele calls that the "tunisian fruit seller" tipping
point. it'll happen.

Post by FaTony
I
had to convince my parents and friends to vote. Half of them didn't care
and the other half didn't think their vote matters. The latter is mostly
true as elections are almost completely rigged and there is now a
popular meme "146%" because that is a total amount of votes if you add
all parties together according to a federal TV report.

brazen. amazing.

Post by FaTony
There was one notable exception. Alexey Navalny was running for a mayor
of Moscow and got the 2nd place with ~20% votes. After that, he was
quickly arrested and was about to get a prison sentence but managed to
avoid it. But his brother didn't though, he's still in prison.

ahh - yes: to make sure alexey behaves. very clever. well, read
what robert steele writes: he points out that we can just sit here and
cower before these people, or we can use transparency and open-ness to
say "ENOUGH", and take responsibility for ourselves.

for computing, i'm merely presenting people with the *opportunity* to
own their own hardware: that's just one small part (quite a
strategically important one) but it's part of something much bigger
that people have to wake up to.

never give up hope, fatony.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@files.phcomp

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 03:51:00 +0000

Post by FaTony

Furthermore,
much of the Chinese and Russian political class believe the West’s
insistence on democracy and human rights is not merely distasteful
and unnecessary, but a concerted way to weaken and destabilize
them.

It doen't look very different from the "west", that is the "US empire".
As the "US empire" I mean the USA and various countries under its
cultural influence, which affects business practices, the laws, people's
opinion, etc.

Post by FaTony
Here's a view from inside of Russia. Russian TV is full of anti-west
propaganda. Every day I hear ppl discussing how some bad stuff is
happening in US, Europe or Ukraine and how Russian patriotism and
Orthodox Church are the foundation upon which you should live.

The same is happening in US, Europe and around the world trough
propaganda too: Many US movies contains very heavy propaganda, and
heavily uses classical conditioning[1]. In such movies,
eastern-type people are often the bad people (criminals, etc).

Post by FaTony
But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares
gets sued, arrested, tortured or killed.

In the "US empire", talking about issues is called whistleblowing,
and you also get sued, arrested, tortured.
- Some got sued (Thomas Drake).
- Some got sued, arrested, and tortured in prison[2] (Chelsea Manning).

As for being killed, I don't know any clear example with a smoking gun,
but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Post by FaTony
Russian authorities use a
blacklist of sites and do DPI to make sure that nobody will find a
way to opposition sites that bring up Russian issues.

As for the DPI and websites blacklist, I don't have enough inforamtion
on that.
DPI and websites blocking do exist[4], but it seems to be less way less
extensively. Propaganda is probably way more efficent.

Post by FaTony
They also have
the legal capacity to store all internet traffic for 6 months.

On many countries of the "US empire", there are also legal requirement
to store at least part of the trafic.

Post by FaTony
But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying
to survive and not die of starvation.

Same in the "US empire", due to unemployment, people are also trying to
survive.

Ironically, starvation and unemployment are deeply linked to the lack
of political freedom, because:
- The law is a really powerful coercion mechanism which can
constraint even the most powerful companies.
- The law is supposed to be the expression of the general
will[5]. And people can decide among themselves how they want to
live, and might decide that tackling starvation is more important
than other objectives.

And the "US Empire" isn't free either, most of its countries are
tyranical[6].

PS:
- Privacy is necessary. Its absence benefits totalitarism.
- Public discourse is necessary too, its absence also benefit
totalitarism.

As an individual, balancing the two in a world that try to attack both
is complicated.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#Detention
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock#Death
[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#2006.E2.80.9308
[5]La loi est l'expression de la volonté générale
[6]https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_philosophique/Garnier_%281878%29/Tyrannie

Denis.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large

[Stefan Monnier]

Post by Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli

Post by FaTony
But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares
gets sued, arrested, tortured or killed.

In the "US empire", talking about issues is called whistleblowing,
and you also get sued, arrested, tortured.

whistleblowing is a fairly special kind of "talking about issues".
Most cases of "talking about issues" in the west are not silenced by
suing/arresting/torturing/killing but by other means (mostly, by making
sure those messages stay confined to marginal circles, so if some of
them ever reach a wider audience, they sound much too outlandish to
have any credibility). The confinement happens mostly by drowning the
signal.


Stefan


_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments t

[Tzafrir Cohen]

I’m finding this insightful as to why luke was treated the way he was by
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/11/the_u_s_should_stop_lecturing_about_internet_values.html

I mostly liked the bits in the end:

"

When President Obama paraphrases the U.S. cybersecurity strategy at a
town hall meeting in China as “the more freely information flows, the
stronger societies become,” China thinks, “You’re a guest and that’s
just rude.”

When the U.S. says, “We will work with partners in industry, academia,
and NGOs to harness the power of connection technologies and apply them
to our diplomatic goals,” Russia thinks, “We were so right to kick out
those foreign NGOs.”

"

I'd also like to add my own:

When the U.S. says: "We would like your citizens to have proper access
to the Internet", North Korea thinks, "We are to allow our citizens to
hear what happens in the South and to hear slander about our fearless
leader."

I love the smell of post-truth in the morning. Also, I guess you have a
really good internet connection in Shenzen.
--
Tzafrir Cohen | ***@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
***@cohens.org.il | | best
***@debian.org | | friend

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbo

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

Post by Tzafrir Cohen

I’m finding this insightful as to why luke was treated the way he was by
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/11/the_u_s_should_stop_lecturing_about_internet_values.html

"
When President Obama paraphrases the U.S. cybersecurity strategy at a
town hall meeting in China as “the more freely information flows, the
stronger societies become,” China thinks, “You’re a guest and that’s
just rude.”
When the U.S. says, “We will work with partners in industry, academia,
and NGOs to harness the power of connection technologies and apply them
to our diplomatic goals,” Russia thinks, “We were so right to kick out
those foreign NGOs.”

https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/11/26/0813222/schools-funded-by-gates-and-zuckerberg-ordered-closed-in-uganda#comments
https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/06/18/1919211/bill-gates-donation-of-thousands-of-chickens-rejected-by-bolivia

professor yunus explains it best, that people need to feel empowered
to uplift *themselves*.

Post by Tzafrir Cohen
I love the smell of post-truth in the morning.

:)

Post by Tzafrir Cohen
Also, I guess you have a really good internet connection in Shenzen.

just one that can tolerate openvpn. the connection speed is around
the 30-50k/sec mark, which is just enough for browsers to not trigger
SSL session establishment timeouts or browser page timeouts on a
regular basis. in shenzhen where it was around the 10-15k/sec mark,
that was where it was completely intolerable.

l.

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@files.phcomp.