Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5?
Stephen Paul Weber
2017-09-23 16:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Will it be RYF? Probably not. Will it be better than anything we have now? Absolutely.

Will it be better than Pyra‎ or Neo900? Depends on your use case. Pyra will probably ship sooner.

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Hendrik Boom
2017-09-23 17:54:47 UTC
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https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
thoughts?
feeling distrust with past intel foo far...
they call them shelf an manufacturer yet it also sounds like they hire a
company to actually make/design the phone (?). hence its not open
hardware as they don’t own the designs.
That can very well depend on the details of the contract. If it is
work for hire they *will* ow the designs.

-- hendrik

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Christopher Havel
2017-09-23 17:56:52 UTC
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That pocket thing looks kind of cute. Light-years outside of my price range
for anything (let alone my little tinkerin' budget) -- but cute. I hadn't
heard about that one before... I like it, even if I can't afford it...
(silly me, I like tiny computers of basically all sorts)

Shameless (and long-winded, sorry) plug...

I'm developing a mostly-open-source (not libre, sorry) laptop called the
AnyTop. ("Mostly" because it runs Windows, because I /really/ don't want to
have to tutor people in Linux with this thing... sorry, everybody, but the
vast majority of this world runs on The Redmond Monstrosity. It just does.)
The idea is that anyone in the world who isn't blind and can use a knife
can follow the instructions and build their own laptop from said
instructions. The only tool you need is a smallish, non-serrated sharp
blade of some sort.

For the record, I'm not planning on distributing anything /other/ than
instructions, and (a) printing them requires color capability on the
printer side and (b) the requirement of being language independent means
that those instructions wind up looking a bit like something you'd see on
the back of a cereal box, and for most "first world" people they're likely
to be a bit inscrutable at first glance. Numbers are represented as hands
with fingers held up, for example, and sizes are expressed in common
objects and parts thereof (such as a sheet of paper or a CD), rather than
customary units (inches, cm, etc)...

Full disclosure: there's this blog called Hackaday ("hack" as in "hacking
together a fix" not as in "l0lzerz I'm hacking your comp00ter box") that
has a 'projects' sub-site and a yearly contest for grand ideas and the like
-- I have entered the AnyTop in that contest, and am keeping a log on the
'projects' side of the place as part of that -- although I don't expect to
win... I rarely win anything, pretty much period, and especially not
contests...

Direct-image link to a concept illustration of a final, constructed AnyTop,
complete with cheesy logo --> Loading Image...

If there's meaningful interest here, and if Luke says it's on-topic (or at
least mostly so), I'll link to the instructions, once they're done, in a
post on this list. I'm also willing to mail a copy to anyone who wants one,
although international mail will be First-Class (not tracked, no delivery
guarantee, and slow as heck) unless the recipient wants to pay for it, and
in all cases I can only mail to places the US Gov't will allow me to...
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Stephen Paul Weber
2017-09-23 17:57:20 UTC
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pyra with 4g + bluetooth headset + if really good power saving is implemented, could then be a kind of phone?
That's my plan. Pyra for me for "phone", Librem5 for my wife.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-23 18:49:13 UTC
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WHAT CPU WILL BE USED I.MX6 OR I.MX8?
We are using the i.MX6, unless/until we know we can use i.MX8.

?? power-hungry Cortex A9?? worra??

WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today

that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?

*sigh*....

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zap
2017-09-23 23:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
WHAT CPU WILL BE USED I.MX6 OR I.MX8?
We are using the i.MX6, unless/until we know we can use i.MX8.
?? power-hungry Cortex A9?? worra??
WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today
that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?
*sigh*....
they seem to think we believe their fairy dust will just magically take
all the non-free blobs/firmware off.

How amusing... but also annoying at the same time.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-23 23:06:50 UTC
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Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today
that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?
*sigh*....
they seem to think we believe their fairy dust will just magically take
all the non-free blobs/firmware off.
How amusing... but also annoying at the same time.
they'll manage to convince a lot of people. what particularly pisses
me off is that they could actually sell a variant *without* WIFI and
BT - at all - and get RYF Certification as a result - and the people
who then really wanted it could use the OTG port in Host Mode and plug
in an RYF-Certified ThinkPenguin TP150N (AR9271).

nggggggh!

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zap
2017-09-23 23:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today
that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?
*sigh*....
they seem to think we believe their fairy dust will just magically take
all the non-free blobs/firmware off.
How amusing... but also annoying at the same time.
they'll manage to convince a lot of people. what particularly pisses
me off is that they could actually sell a variant *without* WIFI and
BT - at all - and get RYF Certification as a result - and the people
who then really wanted it could use the OTG port in Host Mode and plug
in an RYF-Certified ThinkPenguin TP150N (AR9271).
nggggggh!
I see your point. How are people that stupid...
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Christopher Havel
2017-09-23 23:44:46 UTC
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While I'm not much of one for conspiracy theories, even I'm forced to admit
that there's growing evidence that those of us here in the USA *ahem* had a
little help with that one...

I will state that I voted for the intelligent and articulate but wonky*
candidate, and not the obnoxious and incompetent hot-air balloon that we
wound up with...

As an aside -- Luke, in my earlier windbag post in this thread, I asked
your permission about something, albeit a little indirectly (I'm not going
to repeat myself here, so as to avoid spamming)... I've not seen a reply
yet, which might be me, or it might not. Did you miss my request, or did I
miss your reply...?

*For the international crowd: in American slang, labeling someone as a wonk
is the political science equivalent of the tech community referring to
someone as a geek or nerd.
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Hendrik Boom
2017-09-24 01:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by zap
How amusing... but also annoying at the same time.
they'll manage to convince a lot of people. what particularly pisses
me off is that they could actually sell a variant *without* WIFI and
BT - at all - and get RYF Certification as a result - and the people
who then really wanted it could use the OTG port in Host Mode and plug
in an RYF-Certified ThinkPenguin TP150N (AR9271).
nggggggh!
I see your point. How are people that stupid...
Let them know. maybe they'll build that TP150N (whatever it is) in
instead of whatever they are planning now.

-- hendrik


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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-24 02:39:52 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
Let them know. maybe they'll build that TP150N (whatever it is) in
instead of whatever they are planning now.
it's a standard 802.11n USB WIFI IC that's based on ath9k. the idiot
team at qualcomm (qualcomm bought atheros then fired all the
management and engineers) is *terminating* that chip... and because
it's a standard USB WIFI IC it's simply not designed for mobile use.
i.e. as far as standard "mobile" users are concerned it would
represent a *massive* drop in perceived value due it absolutely eating
battery life.

plus, you tend to get a feel quite quickly for companies that are...
well... self-promoting and out for sensationalism, and which ones
are... genuine and up-front. basically i don't _want_ to have a
conversation with them.

l.

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Tzafrir Cohen
2017-09-25 11:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
WHAT CPU WILL BE USED I.MX6 OR I.MX8?
We are using the i.MX6, unless/until we know we can use i.MX8.
?? power-hungry Cortex A9?? worra??
WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today
that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?
*sigh*....
For every purest of the purists there is someone even more purist.
--
Tzafrir Cohen | ***@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
***@cohens.org.il | | best
***@debian.org | | friend

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-25 12:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tzafrir Cohen
For every purest of the purists there is someone even more purist.
ohmmmmmmmmmm....

but seriously: ethical decision-making is an on-off thing. it's
either black - you made an ethical decision - or it's white - you made
an UNethical decision. you chose CONVENIENCE over making a stand, and
saying "no further. the line is HERE".

the problem is... people *really* don't like it when you point that
out... because people don't normally think in hard black-and-white.
which is why you get people going completely off-the-fucking-wall NUTS
during question-time at dr stallman's talks. they accuse him of
hypocrisy, shout and almost scream at him... just so that they can
mentally dismiss everything he said for the past 105 minutes and be
able to walk out in a huff.

in a way, software libre - the whole FSF thing - is basically the
modern-day equivalent of the black rights, slavery freedom / rights,
women's rights, and any civil liberties movement you care to name.
it's just completely unappreciated as such.

l.

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Bill Kontos
2017-09-25 16:32:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
but seriously: ethical decision-making is an on-off thing. it's
either black - you made an ethical decision - or it's white - you made
an UNethical decision. you chose CONVENIENCE over making a stand, and
saying "no further. the line is HERE".
No it's not. People need upgraded computers and the x200 libreboot
supply will eventually run out. This is not convenience, at some point
something becomes slow enough that you can't effectively get your job
done. Purism laptops represent a decent offering for security etc and
afaik there is no other laptop that cuts power to the camera like they
do. For 99% of the users the only argument for libreboot and free
firmware is security. Purism is trying to tacle that requirement and
has been fairly sucessful so far. I would expect the same to happen
with the phones. Afaik the only blob existing there will be for the
baseband which will be burned into rom on a separate chip with no
access to main memory and a killswitch. So it's pretty much as good as
it gets given existing regulations and I don't see why having a phone
that can do all this stuff is a bad idea. Heck having a phone with
backdoors that can run a regular gnu stack is better than what we have
right now. Purists that will tell you to just not use a phone because
we are required by regulations to run those few kb of closed rom code
have no place in this discussion honestly because they offer nothing
to the table for a solution. People need phones and having a phone
with some blobs allows for much more practical freedoms than having no
phone at all.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the problem is... people *really* don't like it when you point that
out... because people don't normally think in hard black-and-white.
And they shouldn't. Thinking in black and white has been the sole
reason for many many attrocities and racism in human history. I am
really dissapointed to read this coming from you.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
which is why you get people going completely off-the-fucking-wall NUTS
during question-time at dr stallman's talks. they accuse him of
hypocrisy, shout and almost scream at him... just so that they can
mentally dismiss everything he said for the past 105 minutes and be
able to walk out in a huff.
rms should seriously work on his presentation. You don't change
someone's world view in one fell swoop, you do it 1% at a time. I felt
exactly the same when I first read about rms and I was so repelled by
him that I almost just wipped my fresh first time ubuntu installation.
The only reason I persisted was for reasons of my own character.
Unfortunately we don't have the technical means he has with an entire
organisation supporting him technically and a lot of us have hardware
requirements that mandate blobs. This is why projects like this, riscv
and the talos project are so important. The free culture is still too
left on the overton window for the average joe. So it is my personal
opinion that the FSF should find a different speaker that can
understand his/her audience better than rms does. Let alone the fact
that pretty much all his talks are to the wrong audience. Think about
it, you have to already be into FOSS to learn of rms, those that need
to learn about it are the ones that are not into it. In adition to
this I don't have time to figure out every stupid way microsoft breaks
compatibility with .docx and .odt, if it doesn't work on libreoffice I
upload it on google docs and download the converted form. I just don't
have time for this and the end result is all that matters.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in a way, software libre - the whole FSF thing - is basically the
modern-day equivalent of the black rights, slavery freedom / rights,
women's rights, and any civil liberties movement you care to name.
it's just completely unappreciated as such.
As I said, the free culture movement is still too left on the overton
window, but people are getting more and more fed up with the current
situation( i.e. drm, copyright on various fan-made content from series
etc), so it might improve in the near future. We just got our first
FOSS game engine with enough patreon money for a developer to work
full time on it. CC is a also a big deal with good high quality
content published with it. Countries are willing to host websites that
directly violate copyright laws because there is practical demand for
it. The EU can try as hard as they want to hide the fact that piracy
does not affect revenue streams but the reality is the only reasons
publishers push against piracy with the petty argument of "paying the
creator" is so free culture does not get the chance to become a more
mainstream acceptable idea. So things are changing and the change is
accelerating. People want better treatment on their software and you
can see it by the marketshare changes, and with time it will improve.
But it is BY NO MEANS a black or white scenario.

It would also help if rms would realise his position at the fsf as a
public entity and did not advocate pedophilia without any compelling
scientific arguments on his personal website.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-25 18:26:20 UTC
Permalink
bill, john, i am fascinated by the insights both of you have, also no
i don't thnk in black or white - i used to, up until i was around...
22 or 23. it was a very... strange time. i'll re-read what both of
you wrote later and reply after some thought ok?

l.

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Tomas Nordin
2017-09-25 20:10:22 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
bill, john, i am fascinated by the insights both of you have, also no
i don't thnk in black or white - i used to, up until i was around...
22 or 23. it was a very... strange time. i'll re-read what both of
you wrote later and reply after some thought ok?
We can stick with thinking in terms of black and white when it comes to
whether some software is free or not. It is either free or it isn't. The
four freedoms make that easy.

Then it can be hard on people to call them lazy by not making sure their
machines are 100 % RYF because of convenience. But escaping ms office is
not hard, there is not much convenience to gain there in place of
freedom, only lock-in. On the machine side I would guess political
activism is what is required.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Tor, the Marqueteur
2017-09-25 20:51:30 UTC
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Tomas Nordin
We can stick with thinking in terms of black and white when it
comes to whether some software is free or not. It is either free or
it isn't. The four freedoms make that easy.
Then it can be hard on people to call them lazy by not making sure
their machines are 100 % RYF because of convenience. But escaping
ms office is not hard, there is not much convenience to gain there
in place of freedom, only lock-in. On the machine side I would
guess political activism is what is required.
In some ways I agree, and in others I disagree here. No, it isn't
always laziness to not have an RYF machine to work on. Whether
anything, be it software, machine, or component of a machine is free
or not is a black and white issue. A whole machine, however, or a
whole distro, also has shades of grey.

One way to think of it to pull from the software side because there
exists a better spectrum to reference, is to imagine all the OS/OS
distros lined up along an 8-bit greyscale colour bar, grading by how
much of the OS is free. If what you care about is fully free, then
you're going to apply a threshold to that colour bar to find which
ones are a suitable option. Nevertheless, someone running Debian or
even Ubuntu, is, when you look at the greyscale version, obviously
much closer to running free software than someone running Windows.

The same is true of machines. As pointed out, right now there isn't
much of anything in modern-day technology for full-fledged
desktop/laptop (I believe that's actually nothing) that is fully free,
and the same for phones. It isn't everyone who has a viable option to
use long-outdated hardware or do without a "smart" phone. Further,
the chasm is in many cases too wide to bridge in a single leap.

Where I see the problem with Purism is that their advertising seems to
try to sound further along than they really are in supplying RYF-grade
hardware. ThinkPenguin, on the other hand, (from whom I bought my
current laptop) appears to be providing hardware relatively similarly
far from RYF, but because they make very clear what they do and don't
have to offer, they have never to my knowledge, taken much heat for
it. Paradoxically, if I've heard correctly, Purism has managed to
free at least one relatively recent processor from Intel's ME, quite
possibly due to the very controversy they have stirred up with their
marketing.


As for how to get more free HW, I think efforts like Talos, EOMA, and
even Purism and ThinkPenguin are the best way forward. I wish the FSF
would do a bit more to promote upcoming hardware that can at least be
expected to be a step beyond what is currently available. It is Talos
in particular I'm thinking of here. When I wrote them after the close
of the Talos campaign on Crowd Supply, they indicated that the FSF
hadn't seemed very interested in working with them, and more
interested in a legislative approach. I think this is a shame,
because that kind of approach, if successful, is only going to get a
lot of people mad at them. Figure out how to promote open hardware so
that it ends up taking the market, and people will soon almost forget
that the world used to be different.

These are my thoughts right now, and may be worth no more than you
paid for them.

Tor


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Tomas Nordin
2017-09-25 22:25:56 UTC
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Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
As for how to get more free HW, I think efforts like Talos, EOMA, and
even Purism and ThinkPenguin are the best way forward. I wish the FSF
would do a bit more to promote upcoming hardware that can at least be
expected to be a step beyond what is currently available. It is Talos
in particular I'm thinking of here. When I wrote them after the close
of the Talos campaign on Crowd Supply, they indicated that the FSF
hadn't seemed very interested in working with them, and more
interested in a legislative approach. I think this is a shame,
because that kind of approach, if successful, is only going to get a
lot of people mad at them. Figure out how to promote open hardware so
Is that really fair? Being mad at FSF for not engaging enough in
hardware project details, they were all about software until recently.
While I agree fully that those projects are one good and important [1]
way to go, I doubt that they will be the final warranty for ethical
hardware for all users. How would that come to be? Sooner or later you
mean, there will one or more projects shipping such spiffy, shiny, low
cost and fully ethichal devices so they will, by the law of supply and
demand, take over the world. Let's hope your are right.

For me, even the effort of giving out this RFY certificate is utterly
impressing. I cannot even imagine the work it must take to do that, it
is far beyond the engineering I am used to. It is a kind of auditing
that would occupy large staff if I would estimate, all highly skilled in
computer electronics and all things around it. But if there was proper
legislation about this ethics, there will be a need for such auditing.
See? FSF is already putting an example to it.

[1] for technical development and proof of concepts

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Isaac David
2017-09-25 18:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kontos
Purists that will tell you to just not use a phone because
we are required by regulations to run those few kb of closed rom code
have no place in this discussion honestly because they offer nothing
to the table for a solution.
this bit here struck a chord with me.

they are offering you one of the best possible solutions available; if
not the best (until one of us finds a couple trillion dollars to
revamp telephony protocols and devices around the world): cutting
through telco/OEM profits until they understand they will only make
money by respecting our privacy and freedom.

it's like consumerism long made us forgot that delaying a bad deal is
also an option, most of the time. life saving procedures can't wait a
decade or two, but mobile communications?, hell yeah. you don't get to
call boycotters on a lack of solutions, when it's the refusal to join
them precisely what undermines the effectiveness of their solution.

as a cellphone non-user and die-hard libre software acolyte, i don't
see the Purism people as enemies. they only need to reword their
marketing to be a bit less disingenuous. they speak the language of
the purists; this is how we know they _are_ aware that their products
will fall short of something like a RYF cert.
Post by Bill Kontos
And they shouldn't. Thinking in black and white has been the sole
reason for many many attrocities[...]
maybe that wasn't the best example, but dichotomies are still a
thing. not everything is a gradient, and we should be more judicious
in finding the right model for the situation. ironically, by ruling
out the possibility of a dichotomy you have fallen victim of bad
black-and-white thinking. black-and-nothing-else thinking, in fact.
Post by Bill Kontos
You don't change someone's world view in one fell swoop, you do it 1%
at a time. [...] So it is my personal opinion that the FSF should
find a different speaker that can understand his/her audience better
than rms does.
well, there are some. have you listened to John Sullivan's talks? they
are geared towards attracting the general FLOSS audience to the libre
side of things. perhaps what we need is more people willing to educate
the public with the strategy of their choice.

different strokes for different folks. i would have never jumped on
board with 1% increases. the whole enterprise would have struck me as
vague and poorly thought. moreover, it wouldn't matter how out from
the overton window free software is. we would still need RMS' clear
referent to not lose sight of what the end goal is.

RMS can't possibly adopt different strategies without being berated
for inconsistency. and from a purely practical perspective, he
probably knows that he will never speak to the same audience twice,
which means that results will be maximum when those few all-or-nothing
daredevils are targeted.
--
Isaac David
GPG: 38D33EF29A7691134357648733466E12EC7BA943
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0C730E0156E96E6193A1445D413557FF5F277BA969A4EA20AC9352889D3B390E77651E816F0C


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Bill Kontos
2017-09-25 20:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac David
as a cellphone non-user and die-hard libre software acolyte, i don't
see the Purism people as enemies. they only need to reword their
marketing to be a bit less disingenuous. they speak the language of
the purists; this is how we know they _are_ aware that their products
will fall short of something like a RYF cert.
First of all congratulations for not using a cellphone. I literally
can't do that. People expect to find me on the phone. I have to follow
facebook teams for announcements and stuff. And yes their marketing
pisses me off a lot. I wish it was more honest but at the same time
they are not spewing lies right and left. They do have a timeline on
what they want to do, they just don't know how fast they will get
there. As it stands right now, purism laptops are the only laptops
that now come with coreboot preinstalled, automatically making them
the second most free platform after the libreboot x200s. Think about
that.
Post by Isaac David
Post by Bill Kontos
And they shouldn't. Thinking in black and white has been the sole
reason for many many attrocities[...]
maybe that wasn't the best example, but dichotomies are still a
thing. not everything is a gradient, and we should be more judicious
in finding the right model for the situation. ironically, by ruling
out the possibility of a dichotomy you have fallen victim of bad
black-and-white thinking. black-and-nothing-else thinking, in fact.
Yes indeed dichotomies can exist in certain things. But on a hardware
piece... nah
Post by Isaac David
Post by Bill Kontos
You don't change someone's world view in one fell swoop, you do it 1%
at a time. [...] So it is my personal opinion that the FSF should
find a different speaker that can understand his/her audience better
than rms does.
well, there are some. have you listened to John Sullivan's talks? they
are geared towards attracting the general FLOSS audience to the libre
side of things. perhaps what we need is more people willing to educate
the public with the strategy of their choice.
different strokes for different folks. i would have never jumped on
board with 1% increases. the whole enterprise would have struck me as
vague and poorly thought. moreover, it wouldn't matter how out from
the overton window free software is. we would still need RMS' clear
referent to not lose sight of what the end goal is.
RMS can't possibly adopt different strategies without being berated
for inconsistency. and from a purely practical perspective, he
probably knows that he will never speak to the same audience twice,
which means that results will be maximum when those few all-or-nothing
daredevils are targeted.
I haven't watched any FSF talks about their philosophy for a while. I
understand their train of thought although rms was a rough
introduction on it. I will check John Sullivan. And yes rms is a very
important figure. He is on a tricky situation as he is probably under
constant fire so he has to remain rigid. But it is a good thing that
ubuntu exists and ships with wifi and gpu blobs. Without them I would
have just reinstalled windows on my first try and never go any
further. As it stands right now fsf endorsed distros can only run on a
very limited number of hardware( such as the purism and the minifree
laptops). So without ubuntu and fedora( which I'm currently using) I
would have never been able to even learn about free software. And
there is no way I would have bought a new laptop, no matter how cheap
to try that weird thing called linux if it didn't work on my existing
one( well half of my hardware was broken at the beginning but still...
it could boot).

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Pen-Yuan Hsing
2017-09-25 21:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Isaac David
as a cellphone non-user and die-hard libre software acolyte, i don't
see the Purism people as enemies. they only need to reword their
marketing to be a bit less disingenuous. they speak the language of
the purists; this is how we know they _are_ aware that their products
will fall short of something like a RYF cert.
First of all congratulations for not using a cellphone. I literally
can't do that. People expect to find me on the phone. I have to follow
facebook teams for announcements and stuff. And yes their marketing
pisses me off a lot. I wish it was more honest but at the same time
they are not spewing lies right and left. They do have a timeline on
what they want to do, they just don't know how fast they will get
there. As it stands right now, purism laptops are the only laptops
that now come with coreboot preinstalled, automatically making them
the second most free platform after the libreboot x200s. Think about
that.
This has been such a fascinating discussion I can't help but chip in. :)
Post by Bill Kontos
congratulations for not using a cellphone
I envy you for being able to live without a cell phone (which are sadly
all not-100%-libre atm).

A common refrain of free software advocates is that if a product is
non-free, just don't use it. This way you don't lose your freedoms and
you also protest the lack of it in said product.

However, I've been reflecting on this and I think the unfortunate truth
is that software freedom is currently a *privilege*. Of course it should
be a right, but right now it isn't.

Digital technology is so intertwined with our lives that so many of our
livelihoods depend on it. So many people would literally not be able to
do their jobs if they refused to use every single piece of technology
that's not 100% free as in freedom.

I think this is where the likes of Purism can come in. Like mike.valk
said, "It's much better than the rest. And if we're successful we might
generate enough money the do even better next time." If we don't support
- or even villify - attempts at *improving* and *getting closer to*
freedom, they we are not moving at all!

And like what Jonathan said with the slavery and civil rights examples,
in some cases it is simply more realistic to take it one step at a time
(or, I guess in software's case, removing one blob at a time).

We can talk about the huge leaps needed to reach 100% software freedom
everywhere, but we need a realistic way of doing that in one step. If we
don't know how to make that huge leap yet, then taking many of those
smaller steps (even if they don't take us all the way) **is** definitely
better than waiting for the huge leap to happen!

I admit I don't know all the details and intricacies of Purism's
activities, but I know there was a lot of vitriol thrown its way for its
laptops during development. But if absolutely no one supported their
laptop campaigns, Purism might not have had the resource to come so
close to freeing the Intel MEs that they are working on now. And isn't
freeding the Intel ME something worth doing?

If we think Purism's communications are not 100% accurate in saying
their products are not 100% free, that's a fair criticism. But rather
than vilifying them and saying they're terrible people, shouldn't we try
our best to engage them and suggest a better way to communicate that?

Again, I haven't been following Purism super closely so maybe I missed
something, and definitely correct me if I'm wrong. But my bigger point
is that sometimes even small steps are valuable and we shouldn't throw
the baby out with the bathwater!

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Lauri Kasanen
2017-09-26 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 22:33:40 +0100
Post by Pen-Yuan Hsing
I admit I don't know all the details and intricacies of Purism's
activities, but I know there was a lot of vitriol thrown its way for its
laptops during development. But if absolutely no one supported their
laptop campaigns, Purism might not have had the resource to come so
close to freeing the Intel MEs that they are working on now. And isn't
freeding the Intel ME something worth doing?
If we think Purism's communications are not 100% accurate in saying
their products are not 100% free, that's a fair criticism. But rather
than vilifying them and saying they're terrible people, shouldn't we try
our best to engage them and suggest a better way to communicate that?
Again, I haven't been following Purism super closely so maybe I missed
something, and definitely correct me if I'm wrong. But my bigger point
is that sometimes even small steps are valuable and we shouldn't throw
the baby out with the bathwater!
You make a decent argument, however all the issues were pointed out to
them during the laptop campaigns again and again, and they did not
learn; they repeated them with this phone. That's willfull ignorance if
not outright malevolence.

1. They advertised the laptop as 100% free, when it could not be so due
to ME.
2. They advertised it would ship with coreboot, when it did not until
several months after release.

Deceptive advertising, and they repeated the same thing with the phone.
Even if we want somebody to succeed in a less-free device, do we want
them to be the people who willfully deceive in order to do so?

- Lauri

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Bill Kontos
2017-09-26 12:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lauri Kasanen
You make a decent argument, however all the issues were pointed out to
them during the laptop campaigns again and again, and they did not
learn; they repeated them with this phone. That's willfull ignorance if
not outright malevolence.
1. They advertised the laptop as 100% free, when it could not be so due
to ME.
2. They advertised it would ship with coreboot, when it did not until
several months after release.
Deceptive advertising, and they repeated the same thing with the phone.
Even if we want somebody to succeed in a less-free device, do we want
them to be the people who willfully deceive in order to do so?
Honestly I don't really care. I look at the end result. Their
advertisement pisses me off to no end, but at least they got something
done. As it stands right now they are the no.2 most free and secure
laptop manufacturer out there. If our community is so twisted that we
need someone to decieve us to get people reverse engineering the intel
ME just to "show them" or whatever happened, then I say well deserved.
So unless some engineer comes out libv-style with proof that "I spent
x amount of my time for purism to take advantage of it and I got
nothing in return" my purchase decision will not change. So far all
that they lied about was the timeframe at which they would ship the
features, but not the features themselves. So no biggie for me. Also
in regards to RYF certification I remember rms saying he wished amd
would burn their firmware blobs for their gpus to rom so they could
grand RYF to their cards. Sounds a bit of a foolish way to grand RYF,
but if purism follows the same idea( which according to the campaign
page they intend to) they might actually get it.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-26 13:06:14 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Bill Kontos
nothing in return" my purchase decision will not change. So far all
that they lied about was the timeframe at which they would ship the
features,
nooo, they lied - in a deceptive way - about the consequences of that
quotes tiny little bit right at the beginning of the boot process
quotes.

they made it look like, because everything else was libre, there was
really absolutely no harm done by having the ME firmware, you really
had nothing to be concerned about, you could buy one of their machines
and have a totally secure system.

we know this to be absolute horseshit in an extremely significant way
libreboot.org/faq/#intelme

now, it *just so happens* that someone recently discovered that the
NSA has clearly had their fingers into intel processors... because
they requested a DISABLE function of the ME back-door co-processor.

without such a disable function there would be absolutely no way that
the NSA could authorise Intel processors for use either on their own
premises or for any government usage.... because the exact same
feature they demanded could be used to spy ON THEM.

fucking ironic.

now.

is ANY of this mentioned on purism's main sales web page?

if the answer is yes, i apologise deeply.

l.

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Bill Kontos
2017-09-26 13:28:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
they made it look like, because everything else was libre, there was
really absolutely no harm done by having the ME firmware, you really
had nothing to be concerned about, you could buy one of their machines
and have a totally secure system.
I don't recall that to be honest. From what I understand they said the
laptop would ship 100% libre from the beginning while they ended up
shiping a traditional laptop with killswitches and the ability to run
coreboot in the future, something that they achieved now. And they
have a decent number of articles about their work on disabling the
intel ME.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
we know this to be absolute horseshit in an extremely significant way
libreboot.org/faq/#intelme
now, it *just so happens* that someone recently discovered that the
NSA has clearly had their fingers into intel processors... because
they requested a DISABLE function of the ME back-door co-processor.
without such a disable function there would be absolutely no way that
the NSA could authorise Intel processors for use either on their own
premises or for any government usage.... because the exact same
feature they demanded could be used to spy ON THEM.
fucking ironic.
now.
is ANY of this mentioned on purism's main sales web page?
I don't think it is and that switch was only a very recent discovery.
It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into
breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code
on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-09-26 14:46:34 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Bill Kontos
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
they made it look like, because everything else was libre, there was
really absolutely no harm done by having the ME firmware, you really
had nothing to be concerned about, you could buy one of their machines
and have a totally secure system.
I don't recall that to be honest.
yes. primarily it's by omission.
Post by Bill Kontos
From what I understand they said the
laptop would ship 100% libre from the beginning while they ended up
shiping a traditional laptop with killswitches and the ability to run
coreboot in the future, something that they achieved now. And they
have a decent number of articles about their work on disabling the
intel ME.
their _requests to intel_ to disable the ME back-door co-processor...
specifically requested (or, well... if the NSA "asks" you can't
exactly say "No"... not if you want to stay in business...) that it be
added in the first place.

which do you think intel will take seriously: the threats the NSA
made against them (along with the nice bribes).. or a company that
makes up 0.00001% of their global business sales?
Post by Bill Kontos
I don't think it is and that switch was only a very recent discovery.
yehyeh.
Post by Bill Kontos
It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into
breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code
on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks.
at laaaast. that's extremely good news. maybe i can do an intel
eoma68 card some day after all.

l.

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Tor, the Marqueteur
2017-09-26 15:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Bill Kontos
It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into
breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code
on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks.
at laaaast. that's extremely good news. maybe i can do an intel
eoma68 card some day after all.
That opens up an interesting possibility. If that unsigned code exploit
might be able to be executed remotely and it breaks the trusted
security, then we could see in businesses that have to care about such
things a flight to AMD and... Talos. The latter might do very nicely to
put open hardware and, by extension, free software into the prime-time
limelight. Of course, that depends on Intel not being able to fix it,
though they'd probably be forevermore tainted by it.

Tor
--
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http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/
808-828-1107
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d***@mail.com
2017-11-16 15:47:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:46:34 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Bill Kontos
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
they made it look like, because everything else was libre, there was
really absolutely no harm done by having the ME firmware, you really
had nothing to be concerned about, you could buy one of their
machines and have a totally secure system.
I don't recall that to be honest.
yes. primarily it's by omission.
Post by Bill Kontos
From what I understand they said the
laptop would ship 100% libre from the beginning while they ended up
shiping a traditional laptop with killswitches and the ability to run
coreboot in the future, something that they achieved now. And they
have a decent number of articles about their work on disabling the
intel ME.
their _requests to intel_ to disable the ME back-door co-processor...
specifically requested (or, well... if the NSA "asks" you can't
exactly say "No"... not if you want to stay in business...) that it be
added in the first place.
which do you think intel will take seriously: the threats the NSA
made against them (along with the nice bribes).. or a company that
makes up 0.00001% of their global business sales?
Post by Bill Kontos
I don't think it is and that switch was only a very recent
discovery.
yehyeh.
Post by Bill Kontos
It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into
breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code
on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks.
at laaaast. that's extremely good news. maybe i can do an intel
eoma68 card some day after all.
l.
BTW: Sorry this is so late, I've been catching up on my mail.
A scheduled talk held where? Can I get a copy?

Thanks,
David

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J.B. Nicholson
2017-09-27 07:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
now, it *just so happens* that someone recently discovered that the
NSA has clearly had their fingers into intel processors... because
they requested a DISABLE function of the ME back-door co-processor.
without such a disable function there would be absolutely no way that
the NSA could authorise Intel processors for use either on their own
premises or for any government usage.... because the exact same
feature they demanded could be used to spy ON THEM.
fucking ironic.
Quite; does this disable function fully and completely disable all attempts
at using any ME functionality such that nothing can re-enable the ME, or is
this disablement somehow impermanent or more limited in some way?

I ask because I vaguely recall that someone (Purism, perhaps?) had remote
ME accesses disabled but still allowed local accesses. This struck me as
nearly useless because such an arrangement would allow running a program to
relay ME requests and responses over a network connection (an ME proxy,
basically).

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Bill Kontos
2017-09-27 10:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by J.B. Nicholson
Quite; does this disable function fully and completely disable all attempts
at using any ME functionality such that nothing can re-enable the ME, or is
this disablement somehow impermanent or more limited in some way?
AFAIK the ME will start booting, see the switch, disable the watchdog
that would shut the machine down in 30 minutes normally and turn
itself off.
Post by J.B. Nicholson
I ask because I vaguely recall that someone (Purism, perhaps?) had remote ME
accesses disabled but still allowed local accesses. This struck me as nearly
useless because such an arrangement would allow running a program to relay
ME requests and responses over a network connection (an ME proxy,
basically).
No Purism has effectively disabled the ME completely at this point. I
say effectively because they have disabled everything but the BUP
module. So no it doesn't have remote access and it can't run anny 3d
party code. It seems like they have put this on hold and switched to
porting Coreboot. But even assuming they had only disabled remote
access wouldn't that mean that an attacker would need physical access
to the machine instead of doing a remote attack?

https://puri.sm/posts/neutralizing-intel-management-engine-on-librem-laptops/
Post by J.B. Nicholson
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d***@mail.com
2017-11-16 15:47:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:10:56 -0500
Post by J.B. Nicholson
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
now, it *just so happens* that someone recently discovered that the
NSA has clearly had their fingers into intel processors... because
they requested a DISABLE function of the ME back-door co-processor.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
without such a disable function there would be absolutely no way that
the NSA could authorise Intel processors for use either on their own
premises or for any government usage.... because the exact same
feature they demanded could be used to spy ON THEM.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
fucking ironic.
Quite; does this disable function fully and completely disable all
attempts at using any ME functionality such that nothing can re-enable
the ME, or is this disablement somehow impermanent or more limited in
some way?
I ask because I vaguely recall that someone (Purism, perhaps?) had
remote ME accesses disabled but still allowed local accesses. This
struck me as nearly useless because such an arrangement would allow
running a program to relay ME requests and responses over a network
connection (an ME proxy, basically).
BTW: Sorry this is so late, I've been catching up on my mail.
Do you have a reference for the NSA disabling the ME?

Thanks,
David

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Philip Hands
2017-09-27 08:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
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Post by Bill Kontos
nothing in return" my purchase decision will not change. So far all
that they lied about was the timeframe at which they would ship the
features,
nooo, they lied - in a deceptive way
Lying in a deceptive way? Surely not! ;-)

I think that it's fairly normal practice to omit inconvenient facts in
one's publicity, which is what appears to be the case, although it's
really hard to tell since I didn't see the material in question, and no
citations seem to have been given throughout this discussion, so the
whole thing seems rather like a lot of mumbled rumour.

I suspect that the EOMA crowdfunding, if subjected to the same level of
scrutiny, might also be found wanting. Did it for instance mention your
qualifications (or lack thereof) in the field of mechanical engineering,
which might be considered a relevant fact when considering funding you
to build a laptop from scratch? Is that omission a case of lying, be
that in a deceptive way or otherwise?

Looking at the publicity for the phone, I note that I know several of
people involved with this (unless they are using people's photos without
permission, and making up quotes -- which I can always check if that's
what people are trying to say).

Assuming the endorsements are genuine, then I know these people well
enough to know that they'd only endorse something that they genuinely
thought to be a good thing, as I'm pretty sure they all know how easy it
is to tarnish one's reputation.

If there really is something wrong with this project, then point me at
actual evidence (rather than a lot of unsubstantiated assertions), and
I'll pass that on so that those people can withdraw their support before
the crowdfunding succeeds, which should limit the overall damage.

If it all just boils down to making the perfect the enemy of the good,
then I suggest that you stop shouting "Splitters!" at them for using the
word Free when you think they meant Libre, or vice versa, or whatever.

Cheers, Phil.
--
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|-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
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Pen-Yuan Hsing
2017-09-26 18:29:46 UTC
Permalink
(before I respond below, just full disclosure again: I didn't follow the
Purism campaigns super closely so please feel free to correct me if I'm
wrong on the *facts*!)
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Lauri Kasanen
You make a decent argument, however all the issues were pointed out to
them during the laptop campaigns again and again, and they did not
learn; they repeated them with this phone. That's willfull ignorance if
not outright malevolence.
1. They advertised the laptop as 100% free, when it could not be so due
to ME.
2. They advertised it would ship with coreboot, when it did not until
several months after release.
Deceptive advertising, and they repeated the same thing with the phone.
Even if we want somebody to succeed in a less-free device, do we want
them to be the people who willfully deceive in order to do so?
I certainly agree that people shouldn't "willfully deceive"! That said,
there is a high bar for demonstrating **wilful** lying. This high bar is
certainly true in many legal jurisdictions, and I think it's a good idea
in general.

As far as I remember (and atm I really don't have time to check
archive.org), when the Librem laptop campaigns first began, they already
had that table in their campaign description saying the BIOS and Intel
ME have not yet been freed, but everything else is. At the time it
looked fairly clear to me that Purism wanted to make a 100%-libre laptop
but there were still a few bits missing. It also seemed clear to me that
they are working on freeing those bits.

One could certainly argue that Purism didn't *emphasise* the non-free
bits, but to me there was no clear *wilful* lying because all the facts
were on the campaign page.

Another important point is that this was a crowdfunding campaign, not a
traditional sales page. And like other crowdfunding campaigns, Purism
laid out what they wanted to achieve. And just like other crowdfunding
campaigns, there is by default no 100% guarantee that everything the
project sets out to do will be 100% achieved 100% on time. Maybe I'm
strange for this, but when I pledge money for a crowdfunding campaign I
know I am supporting the project to move towards a goal while conscious
that sometimes not all the goals are 100% achieved.

And let's look at what Purism *has* achieved: They are now much closer
to freeing the Intel ME on their laptops, certainly much closer than
before their campaign started. This benefits everyone not just Purism,
and I don't think this achievement is possible if no one supported their
initial crowdfunding.

I agree Purism is likely far from perfect, but during the same period of
time has anyone else achieved what Purism did? (honest question)

I'm a backer of the EOMA68 project and am super excited about what's
being done here, but it's a different set of achievements from what
Purism is working on.

But whatever Purism's real intentions, my main point isn't to defend them.
Post by Bill Kontos
Honestly I don't really care. I look at the end result. Their
advertisement pisses me off to no end, but at least they got something
done. As it stands right now they are the no.2 most free and secure
laptop manufacturer out there. If our community is so twisted that we
need someone to decieve us to get people reverse engineering the intel
ME just to "show them" or whatever happened, then I say well deserved.
So unless some engineer comes out libv-style with proof that "I spent
x amount of my time for purism to take advantage of it and I got
nothing in return" my purchase decision will not change. So far all
that they lied about was the timeframe at which they would ship the
features, but not the features themselves. So no biggie for me. Also
in regards to RYF certification I remember rms saying he wished amd
would burn their firmware blobs for their gpus to rom so they could
grand RYF to their cards. Sounds a bit of a foolish way to grand RYF,
but if purism follows the same idea( which according to the campaign
page they intend to) they might actually get it.
I partly agree with Bill here.

To be clear: My point isn't to *specifically* defend Purism, though they
have demonstrable achievements for software freedom.

My main point is that I feel the free software community *in general* is
very hostile towards small steps that don't take us to 100% software
freedom. If a laptop that's, say, 95%-libre is made by someone (doesn't
have to be Purism), it is real progress and objectively better than a
laptop that's 50% or even 0% libre.

I think our response to projects that make 95%-ish-libre (or even 75%)
products shouldn't be "you are a terrible person!", it should be "great
job for taking us a bit closer to software freedom, how do we work
together to make it even better?"

This is what I think, and if you disagree on this main point (not
specific to Purism) I'd honestly love to hear your opinion!

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zap
2017-09-25 19:03:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the problem is... people *really* don't like it when you point that
out... because people don't normally think in hard black-and-white.
And they shouldn't. Thinking in black and white has been the sole
reason for many many attrocities and racism in human history. I am
really dissapointed to read this coming from you.
I suppose there is some truth to that, but I guess, there is white,
black and gray (not talking about races)

the most we have in life is shades of gray. Not talking about that dumb
movie.

What is key is that we move towards the lighter gray not the darker or
even worse black...
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
which is why you get people going completely off-the-fucking-wall NUTS
during question-time at dr stallman's talks. they accuse him of
hypocrisy, shout and almost scream at him... just so that they can
mentally dismiss everything he said for the past 105 minutes and be
able to walk out in a huff.
rms should seriously work on his presentation. You don't change
someone's world view in one fell swoop, you do it 1% at a time. I felt
exactly the same when I first read about rms and I was so repelled by
him that I almost just wipped my fresh first time ubuntu installation.
The only reason I persisted was for reasons of my own character.
Unfortunately we don't have the technical means he has with an entire
organisation supporting him technically and a lot of us have hardware
requirements that mandate blobs. This is why projects like this, riscv
and the talos project are so important. The free culture is still too
left on the overton window for the average joe. So it is my personal
opinion that the FSF should find a different speaker that can
understand his/her audience better than rms does. Let alone the fact
that pretty much all his talks are to the wrong audience. Think about
it, you have to already be into FOSS to learn of rms, those that need
to learn about it are the ones that are not into it. In adition to
this I don't have time to figure out every stupid way microsoft breaks
compatibility with .docx and .odt, if it doesn't work on libreoffice I
upload it on google docs and download the converted form. I just don't
have time for this and the end result is all that matters.
No... RMS means well, if people don't want to understand him its their
fault.  Don't get me wrong, I disagree with him on faith...  (notice I
didn't say religion because that falls into a category of doing what is
impossible for mankind alone.) My belief of religion is trying to follow
any type of faith perfectly which is impossible.  And that Christianity
is a type of faith that cannot be used religiously.  I have come to that
conclusion due to several things, including the 2016 election. I will
stop that part for now though...

But I really do not think Stallman is wrong about libre/free software. 
People need to stop acting like capitalism is from God or something like
that and socialism is from hell. In reality, I think both have their
purposes in this life but, capitalism right now is like 85% of my
country. when it should be only 40% of the country. 

Anyways though, I will get to the point now, captialism says make money
at any cost even if it means invading people's privacy and screwing with
people's lives and bribing the government.

That's my personal view by the way.

Socialism I believe gives too much freedom though.  A balance is needed
clearly...
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in a way, software libre - the whole FSF thing - is basically the
modern-day equivalent of the black rights, slavery freedom / rights,
women's rights, and any civil liberties movement you care to name.
it's just completely unappreciated as such.
As I said, the free culture movement is still too left on the overton
window, but people are getting more and more fed up with the current
situation( i.e. drm, copyright on various fan-made content from series
etc), so it might improve in the near future. We just got our first
FOSS game engine with enough patreon money for a developer to work
full time on it. CC is a also a big deal with good high quality
content published with it. Countries are willing to host websites that
directly violate copyright laws because there is practical demand for
it. The EU can try as hard as they want to hide the fact that piracy
does not affect revenue streams but the reality is the only reasons
publishers push against piracy with the petty argument of "paying the
creator" is so free culture does not get the chance to become a more
mainstream acceptable idea. So things are changing and the change is
accelerating. People want better treatment on their software and you
can see it by the marketshare changes, and with time it will improve.
But it is BY NO MEANS a black or white scenario.
It would also help if rms would realise his position at the fsf as a
public entity and did not advocate pedophilia without any compelling
scientific arguments on his personal website.
Another thing to consider, piracy REALLY DOESN'T exist...

Sharing works copyrighted or not, is not piracy. Pirates stole
everything not just a copy of the author's work and sold it.  They also
killed people and raped people to death.
My point is that piracy is a horrible way to describe people who share
copyrighted works.

This has been an interesting conversation though. Thank you.

ps, socialism should be 50% of all governments,

40% captialism.

and 10% everything else

That's my opinion anyways.
Post by Bill Kontos
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Christopher Havel
2017-09-25 19:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Throwing my voice in the ring...

*On topic --* I agree with the 'shades of grey' view of things. Life is not
simple, and (with exactly one single exception, AFAIK) anyone who says
otherwise is deluding themselves and possibly others. There are just
varying kinds of complexity. The sole exception I can find is blissful
ignorance, and I for one want nothing of that.

*Not-entirely-on-topic-but-we're-talking-about-it-so-whatever --*
"socialism" got its bad rap because of a different but similar system
called "communism". Someone somewhere got the bright idea (not!) to
conflate the two, and away we went. Actual, real, true socialism (Marxist
or otherwise) has, as far as I'm aware, never been actually tested as a
means of governance. Communism has, but that's different, in a way that (as
usual) is nuanced and can't be really reduced to a sound bite quite nearly
as easily as "socialism is bad ya'll".

For those who do not study political science enough to know the difference
-- in a nutshell, socialism relies on the people to overthrow their
existing government and replace it with socialism. Communism is a
revolution from within the government, in that the people are not to be
trusted to pull it all off correctly and so the government must do it for
them. This demonstrably leads to paranoia in governance and a totalitarian
state.

*Nota Bene -- *mind you, while I consider myself a socialist, I am NOT NOT
NOT FLAMING NOT a Marxist. Marx's original idea called, as the end product,
for a "non-state" (for lack of a better term) -- what amounted to a sort of
cooperative anarchy wherein a government didn't exist because it was to be
superfluous. I do not have anywhere near enough faith in humanity (or
anything else) to imagine that such an organization (again, for lack of a
better term) would last one hot minute. The first yahoo born who realizes
how easy it is to game that system is going to bring the whole thing
crashing down -- and, given how crafty we all are as it is, that's going to
happen in a time frame best measured in fractional heartbeats. What I would
like to see, would look a little more like the way many Nordic countries
operate -- what they call "social democracy". I personally think there are
ways to improve even those systems, but that's the model I'd primarily
start with if I were given the order to reinvent civilization from the
ground up... (please don't ever give me that order, though, as I will
freely volunteer that I am in no way qualified for the job. I'm just
another armchair emperor, so to speak...)
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Bill Kontos
2017-09-25 20:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isaac David
Post by Bill Kontos
Purists that will tell you to just not use a phone because
we are required by regulations to run those few kb of closed rom code
have no place in this discussion honestly because they offer nothing
to the table for a solution.
this bit here struck a chord with me.
Noo, I'm talking about the free software purists not purism.

Luke, when rms was asked wether he prefered gamers to play proprietary
games on windows or linux he didn't answer "don't play proprietary
games". He chose linux with the rationale that it's better to to run a
proprietary application on an open platform so the users can
experience software freedom at least to so extend in order to
understand the benefits of it. Because as I said the entire argument
for the ethical point is to be pro user, pro decentralization and
against massive power interests. The same happened when they ported
the GNU userland to closed platforms in the 90s.
Post by Isaac David
No... RMS means well, if people don't want to understand him its their
fault. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with him on faith... (notice I
didn't say religion because that falls into a category of doing what is
impossible for mankind alone.) My belief of religion is trying to follow
any type of faith perfectly which is impossible. And that Christianity
is a type of faith that cannot be used religiously. I have come to that
conclusion due to several things, including the 2016 election. I will
stop that part for now though...
I know rms means good and that is the reason why I always advocate for
his work. I don't want to go into religion and politics as we are
opening too many discussions. But as I said what a lot of technical
people don't understand is that our worldview is an integral part of
our character. Challenging that automatically puts the person into
defense mode. It's not something we can do about, it's an instict. You
have to be very careful to not make a big attack so logic can prevail
over the instict. This is a tradoff that I come up with all the time
in my line of work: how to initiate a change on the state of mind fast
enough but not too fast that it fails.
Post by Isaac David
But I really do not think Stallman is wrong about libre/free software.
People need to stop acting like capitalism is from God or something like
that and socialism is from hell. In reality, I think both have their
purposes in this life but, capitalism right now is like 85% of my
country. when it should be only 40% of the country.
Stallman is absolutely right. If you heart is in the right place you
will imediately understand the benefits of the free culture movement
for everyone. The fact that we are not there yet is due to actions
from big interests that want to keep sharing limited to the old model
and due to the fact that society hasn't really caught up with it yet.
But we are getting there. The fact that we can now make infinite
copies of a piece of art/software and freely share them but we are
artificially shutting the door to it just blows my mind...
Post by Isaac David
Another thing to consider, piracy REALLY DOESN'T exist...
Well, the modern version of piracy. I think everyone understands that
and doesn't confuse it with the historical version of it. Besides the
fact that we have a site called piratebay doesn't help.

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zap
2017-09-26 01:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kontos
Stallman is absolutely right. If you heart is in the right place you
will imediately understand the benefits of the free culture movement
for everyone. The fact that we are not there yet is due to actions
from big interests that want to keep sharing limited to the old model
and due to the fact that society hasn't really caught up with it yet.
But we are getting there. The fact that we can now make infinite
copies of a piece of art/software and freely share them but we are
artificially shutting the door to it just blows my mind...
Yep, it doesn't make too much sense.
But also, piracy was a term coined  to make drm easier to implement
without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.

In all truth though, piracy is an extreme word to use for freely sharing
software.

I don't agree that it should be called piracy at all. Matter of fact,
copyright is unenforceable when it comes to the people that it was
trying to stop in the first place.
copyright was *ORIGINALLY...* to stop people from selling their own
copies of someone else's software and act like it is theirs
but now they have expanded it so far that it is now okay to do that
which is wrong... *INVADING PEOPLE's PRIVACY!!! *and you cannot remove
that part unless you reverse engineer it. Which should be a non-issue.
Screw *DRM.* that is all.
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Tor, the Marqueteur
2017-09-26 01:30:08 UTC
Permalink
But also, piracy was a term coined to make drm easier to implement
without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.
From my reading, pirates/piracy as relates to copyright was actually
coined looong ago, well before software. It originally referred to
publishers who found ways (often legal by means of other countries'
laws) to reprint works and not pay the author. I'm pretty sure I once
read that the Gilbert & Sullivan operetta The Pirates of Penzance was
spurred at least in part by such copyright pirates.

Tor
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zap
2017-09-26 01:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Post by zap
without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.
From my reading, pirates/piracy as relates to copyright was actually
Okay, I thought it was something coined by corrupt arrogant specks from
the 20th century...

my bad.
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Michael Verrenkamp
2017-09-26 01:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Post by zap
without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.
From my reading, pirates/piracy as relates to copyright was actually
Okay, I thought it was something coined by corrupt arrogant specks from
the 20th century...
my bad.
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 Found this on Wiki -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Piracy.22

"Article 12 of the 1886 Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary
and Artistic Works
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works>
uses the term "piracy" in relation to copyright infringement, stating
"Pirated works may be seized on importation into those countries of the
Union where the original work enjoys legal protection."

Michael


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Philip Hands
2017-09-26 09:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Verrenkamp
Post by zap
Post by Tor, the Marqueteur
Post by zap
without people freaking out against people in power/corporations.
From my reading, pirates/piracy as relates to copyright was actually
Okay, I thought it was something coined by corrupt arrogant specks from
the 20th century...
my bad.
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 Found this on Wiki -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Piracy.22
"Article 12 of the 1886 Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary
and Artistic Works
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works>
uses the term "piracy" in relation to copyright infringement, stating
"Pirated works may be seized on importation into those countries of the
Union where the original work enjoys legal protection."
Wow! I really wasn't expecting this thread to produce anything useful.
Thanks. I like it when I learn something new. ;-)

FWIW I as a Debian Developer of 20+ years standing am pretty committed to
Free Software, and have subscribed to things like the OpenMoko and the
neo900, disappointingly without it resulting in a phone I can use to
date.

There was a lot of heat, but not very much light in this thread.

Meanwhile I've signed up for one of these phones.

I don't have any great expectation that they'll succeed, since I've seen
previous attempts fail, but if I end up with a (mostly) Free Software
based phone, running a mainstream kernel/distro that is likely to
survive the demise of the project, I'll be pretty happy about it.

I doubt the chances of that happening will be improved one iota by
attempting to make them do things to satisfy people who, when it comes
down to it, don't actually want a phone in their pocket, but rather a
"100% libre" thing that looks like a phone, but cannot make phone calls
unless you plug it into an external dongle (or some such).

If you can show me a better project, then I might invest in that too,
but in the absence of that I'm willing to put up with the level of
non-freeness that is pretty-much inherent in making such a device.

The neo900 folk seem to be aiming a little higher, but they also seem to
have effectively failed at this point, because they have taken so long
that they've lost their opportunity -- there is probably not going to be
a vibrant developer community coalescing around a phone that is so far
behind the curve and expensive. Also, even if it did become popular
somehow, the parts are probably not available for a second run.

Cheers, Phil.
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Jonathan Frederickson
2017-09-25 17:53:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
but seriously: ethical decision-making is an on-off thing. it's
either black - you made an ethical decision - or it's white - you made
an UNethical decision. you chose CONVENIENCE over making a stand, and
saying "no further. the line is HERE".
Let's assume that everyone agrees on what makes a decision ethical or
unethical for a moment - this is not the case, but it's a huge topic
on its own, so let's sidestep that.

I disagree. For any single decision regarding which component to pick,
this may be true. But as a whole, it's more grey than that.

As a hypothetical, let's say you're trying to make a phone that's as
free as possible. You're able to include components with free firmware
and free drivers right up until you hit the GPU, at which point the
only available chip that fits within your budget has proprietary
firmware. Every other phone on the market also has proprietary
firmware for their GPUs, and the rest of it is more proprietary than
your new device. Does the fact that your device also requires nonfree
firmware for that component make it unethical to produce this device
as a whole?

I would argue that it does not. Producing this device, while it
doesn't take you the whole way there, still gives users the ability to
choose a device that's more free than what they're currently able to
choose. If the creators of this device took the hard-line stance that
every component must be free despite not being able to procure free
versions of the components they require, the phone simply wouldn't be
made, and users would be worse off for it.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
in a way, software libre - the whole FSF thing - is basically the
modern-day equivalent of the black rights, slavery freedom / rights,
women's rights, and any civil liberties movement you care to name.
it's just completely unappreciated as such.
To run with your analogy here: the Emancipation Proclamation took
effect in 1863, the 13th Amendment was passed in 1865, but racial
discrimination was legally permitted in the US until the Civil Rights
Act of 1964. Had the country taken a hard-line stance that all slaves
must be freed *and* treated equally at the same time, there likely
would have been more opposition to the idea than there was to the
single step of freeing the slaves.

Both are important, but it's easier to convince people to change one
step at a time, and the world is still made a better place each time.
Not perfect, no, but better.

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2017-09-25 14:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tzafrir Cohen
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
WHAT CPU WILL BE USED I.MX6 OR I.MX8?
We are using the i.MX6, unless/until we know we can use i.MX8.
?? power-hungry Cortex A9?? worra??
WILL YOU BE SEEKING FSF RYF ENDORSEMENT?
We will constantly keep FSF up-to-date on the hardware and software,
our current understanding is any non-free kernel firmware needed for
RF chips will not meet the RYF qualifications today
that's right boyzngirlz, it don't. so... why are you calling your
company "purism", again?
*sigh*....
For every purest of the purists there is someone even more purist.
In this case it's about being honest. Just because it's less bad does
not make it good.

If every one is doing the bad thing, that doesn't make it right. That
way of thinking brought on the whole banking crisis. And many wars
etc.

I'm not saying that this will start a crisis or a war. But it's wrong
nonetheless.

They sell this as an good "open" product. If they believe they are
doing the right thing they are just totally wrong. And probably deaf.

The'res no shame in saying: Is the phone BLOB free no! Is it more open
than the average smartphone yes. It's much better than the rest. And
if we're successful we might generate enough money the do even better
next time. Support us!

What you do get.
- Better privacy. The telco does not have access to your memory! Why?
The GSM module is separate from CPU.
- Opensource drivers. You can swap OS and keep upgrading until it falls apart.
- Open schematics. Hack away it's your as you please.

What not
- Open firmware

How's that for purism marketing!

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