Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] need help! getting a bit overwhelmed on lists.oshwa.org
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-08-23 21:46:33 UTC
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http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-August/001865.html

very similarly minded people, unfortunately using the word "open
source" in reference to what are clearly libre principles. if anyone
has time i'd really appreciate some help... but also i think people
here would genuinely appreciate the opportunity to debate, also
there's people there from "open ecology" and many other areas.

l.

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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Andrew M.A. Cater
2016-08-23 22:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-August/001865.html
very similarly minded people, unfortunately using the word "open
source" in reference to what are clearly libre principles. if anyone
has time i'd really appreciate some help... but also i think people
here would genuinely appreciate the opportunity to debate, also
there's people there from "open ecology" and many other areas.
There's probably no help with them unless you can show them the useful
FLOSS term, point out that the Open Source Definition derives from
the Debian Free Software Guidelines (and has since been rather
disclaimed by one of its authors).

Libre guarantees slightly more than open source :)

Hope this helsp,

AndyC
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-08-24 00:39:29 UTC
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---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-August/001865.html
very similarly minded people, unfortunately using the word "open
source" in reference to what are clearly libre principles. if anyone
has time i'd really appreciate some help... but also i think people
here would genuinely appreciate the opportunity to debate, also
there's people there from "open ecology" and many other areas.
There's probably no help with them unless you can show them the useful
FLOSS term, point out that the Open Source Definition derives from
the Debian Free Software Guidelines (and has since been rather
disclaimed by one of its authors).
Libre guarantees slightly more than open source :)
i know that, you know that.... but they've taken the libre definition
of the "four freedoms", transliterated it to a hardware world... and
called it OPEN HARDWARE (!!!)

l.

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Cláudio Sampaio
2016-08-24 02:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
-
Post by Andrew M.A. Cater
There's probably no help with them unless you can show them the useful
FLOSS term, point out that the Open Source Definition derives from
the Debian Free Software Guidelines (and has since been rather
disclaimed by one of its authors).
Libre guarantees slightly more than open source :)
i know that, you know that.... but they've taken the libre definition
of the "four freedoms", transliterated it to a hardware world... and
called it OPEN HARDWARE (!!!)
​Not perfectly. In theory, really "libre" hardware ​should make the chip
sources available too. What is classified as "open source hardware" hardly
have any non-secret chips, because the definition they came up with allows
that.

​Best regards,​
--
Cláudio "Patola" Sampaio
MakerLinux Labs - Campinas, SP
Gmail <***@gmail.com> - Mail EAD <***@techtraining.eng.br> -
MakerLinux <***@makerlinux.com.br> - YOUTUBE
<https://www.youtube.com/user/makerlinux>!
Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/patolinux> - Facebook da MakerLinux
<https://www.facebook.com/makerlinux> - Lattes
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-08-24 03:07:58 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i know that, you know that.... but they've taken the libre definition
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
of the "four freedoms", transliterated it to a hardware world... and
called it OPEN HARDWARE (!!!)
​Not perfectly. In theory, really "libre" hardware ​should make the chip
sources available too.
mmm... i'd call that "libre chips" or "libre silicon" not "libre hardware",
to make the distinction. awkward that "hardware" is a generic term that
could cover both... blegh.

l.
Xavi Drudis Ferran
2016-08-24 07:54:35 UTC
Permalink
libre hardware sounds good to me.
It sounds well but I don't really know the definitions out there and
the stablished usage of terms. Arguing about words is tricky,
specially without verily through understanding of their use.
Ethimology or synthetic meaning from name components only gets you so far.
Words mean what people take them to mean.
hmm ill have to ask others what hardware means to them.
Software is information on how to solve a problem with a computer,
hardware is the computer, wetware is the users who have the problem
(including developers).

For me anything hard to change is hardware, anything easy to change is
software. Hence the sensible FSF position on software on ROMs
being like hardware and software in EEPROMs being like software.

Then the question comes of hard _for whom_ to change. With signed blobs
there is software that is only soft for the vendor, not for the
users. With unsigned proprietary software the user may be able to
uninstall and replace it, but not do modifications, so it is softer
for the vendor than for the consumer. Free software is real soft for
everyone involved. Copyleft software is real soft for everyone
involved forever. Yet free software project governance can change a
little its stiffness and fragility. Hence that NASA engineer phrase
"if it ain't source, ain't software". I'd say "if it isn't source, it
isn't soft enough software".

Another question is _when_ something is software and when it is
hardware. In my view IP blocks start as software, maybe files written
in Verilog, VHDL or more modern languages, and gets passed around and
adapted. Then it is transformed to some other forms of software, and
in the fab it becomes hardware (no it doesn't, some copies of it are
made which are hardware, not exact copies, and the original software,
the hardware design remains, but the user often doesn't see it). Now
nobody can change it anymore (the hardware design can evolve into
different hardware, but the hardware copies can't be changed). Just
like catle is catle when it's alive and meat when killed, then you can
only eat it but you can't make it grow, milk it or breed and grow your
herd. So all farmers try to have some cattle breed before killing it.

Software becomes hardware when put in a ROM ? And in a CDROM ? It
depends. You can usually easily exchange a CDROM for another, you can
also copy it to RW media, and modify it. So your dead cow can be
resurrected. It's easier to just say the cow wasn't dead. Then there
are DRM and copy protection tricks that make life harder for your
veterinary. You may be able to change a socketed ROM but still need to
have one etched with the new software and that is not too easy if it
isn't an EEPROM.

That interpretation works for me, but I'm not aware of being official
or wildly supported. It's simplistic and can be in trouble with
details, but it's "good enough" defining. People get confused with
firmware, FPGAs, efuses, etc. Hardware developers have it more
difficult, because they don't look at things from the end of project
perspective, so they don't see it like users. They (mostly) think on
how to make hardware better when it still is software. So they tend to
forget it won't be hardware until they stop improving it. They modify
software but they are really thinking on the effects on the hardware
copies (in extreme cases they may even think on the distortions
introduced by the copy-to-hardware process). Just like farmers might
apply decisions to live cattle thinking on the taste or health effects
in the meat, and that does not make them cooks. And the copy of the
designs, which stays software, can breed and produce improved new
hardware revisions, which will again be software until they're done
and become hardware. Just like the farmer can selectively breed to get
better meat in future generations.

Last time I saw RMS at a conference he was asked about Libre hardware
(or similar, I don't remember the exact terms) and he answered more or
less that libre hardware doesn't exist, at least until we get some
photocopier for circuits, but libre hardware designs are very good
(but out of scope for him). More or less. I don't remember well. I
could look it up if it is recorded. The distiction is important but it
is understandably to just say libre hardware meaning "hardware which
comes with its libre hardware designs so the user can play farmer (or
hire farmers)".

And it seems some people are buying live cows. 78% of funds at 97% of
days, but 509 compute cards, 41 pass through cards, and 100 laptops
(assembled or kits). According to lkcl that makes into viable
territory for the laptop too... (although the criteria is not clear,
lkcl has already said it is better to leave the detailed analysis for
after the campaign, one of the early updates projected 500 cards and
140 laptops and thought it OKish, at some point he said if there were
500 cards it might do with just 100 laptops, and the last message there
concentrates on capital for travel, development and sustenance).

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/really-cool-modular-and-freedom-respecting-computer.77612/page-7

Btw. luke, this patch might "donate" 180$ to you ?
http://rhombus-tech.net/crowdsupply/assess_campaign.py
--- assess_campaign.py 2016-08-24 09:39:14.925861053 +0200
+++ assess_campaign4.py 2016-08-24 09:45:14.025302579 +0200
@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@

# PCB etc. extras (test, packaging, shipping)
sticker_cost = 4.0 + 3.0
-tshirt_cost = 20.0 + 5.0 # QTY 20 is $10
+tshirt_cost = 10.0 + 5.0 # QTY <20 is $20
cc_cost = 30.0 + 10.0
laptop_cost = 166.0 + 120.0
desktop_cost = 20.0 + 10.0
@@ -41,7 +41,7 @@
print "spare:", spare
print "nres: ", nres
print "after nres:", spare - nres
-cards = num_eoma68_a20s + num_breakouts
+cards = num_eoma68_a20s + num_passthroughs
sockets = num_desktops + num_laptops + num_breakouts
print "total MOQ cards", cards
print "total MOQ sockets", sockets





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Elena ``of Valhalla''
2016-08-25 07:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
For me anything hard to change is hardware, anything easy to change is
software. Hence the sensible FSF position on software on ROMs
being like hardware and software in EEPROMs being like software.
I find that definitions based on how easy it is to change something tend
to put the actual dividing line in places that feel arbitrary,
especially because what is easy for somebody is very hard for somebody
else.

In this specific case, additionally, the dividing line is placed in such
a way that IMHO gives advantages to state-sponsored attackers (for whom
changing code stored on ROM is not exactly easy, but somewhat feasible)
and even technical users (that in most case don't have access to the
tools needed to do so).

A definition that I like comes from Renzo Davoli and is basically that
hardware is made of atoms, software is knowledge.

With this definition, programs are of course software, firmware is
software, verilog descriptions of a CPU are software, board designs are
software (but not the boards themselves), and also culture, literature,
music etc. are software, and kitchen recipes, but not the actual dishes
that you eat.

This way, the difference is a deep one: if I give somebody a piece of
hardware, I no longer have it, in a zero sum game, while if I give
somebody a piece of software we both have it and the total value for
humanity has grown.

Of course, under this definition, today in 2016 it is impossible to buy
a computer¹ whose software is completely free. My personal pragmatic
position is that buying (and in certain case using) things is ok from a
freedom point of view as long as they have a bit more free software than
the current standard (either as sold or after I've changed stuff that is
easy — and legal — *for me* to change, depending on the context and the
kind of market).

e.g. in 2016 an A20 based board that respects the definition of Open
Hardware from OSHWA is fine, but if in 2026 we'll have a SoC for which
the verilog sources are available a board based on a proprietary chip
like the A20 won't be fine anymore, even if I have no practical way to
get advantage of the difference.

¹ using in this case the very imprecise and personal definition of
"something on which I can run a text editor, vi-based, thanks, and a
graphical web browser, with the ability to connect to the internet"
--
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Xavi Drudis Ferran
2016-08-25 08:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
I find that definitions based on how easy it is to change something tend
to put the actual dividing line in places that feel arbitrary,
especially because what is easy for somebody is very hard for somebody
else.
Yes, I acknowledged this problem. We may have to accept that some
things are softer for some people than for others, and strive for more
softness for more people.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
In this specific case, additionally, the dividing line is placed in such
a way that IMHO gives advantages to state-sponsored attackers (for whom
changing code stored on ROM is not exactly easy, but somewhat feasible)
and even technical users (that in most case don't have access to the
tools needed to do so).
You mean intercepting postal packets or sabotages in douanes or check
control points ? I don't know how to protect from that (at least
without imposing too cumbersone measures to normal use by the
legitimate user).
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
A definition that I like comes from Renzo Davoli and is basically that
hardware is made of atoms, software is knowledge.
I like it because of its ontological root. And it is more generally
useful, like in control of forces of nature is hardware patents and
logical solutions are software patents (although this distiction would
only make sense if patent offices tried to do something useful, and
even then there's doubt whether they could). In this sense your
definition is better.

In my message I called software "information", not knowledge, because
in the uses I've come across knowledge is reserved for the
interiosation of interrelated information by humans, it is what
information provokes in you (and let's not get started in strong
AI). But yes, if you take humans into the picture, software is
knowledge and it is even culture.

In practical application you have the problem that knowledge exists in
an abstract form, but is handled in concrete representations, and
those representations are always physical, so people can circumvent
definitions by alluding that they are handling representations, not
the knowledge itself. So a tivoized device may not hide any
information or knowledge but it may prevent you from changing the
representation that the device will use. It won't prevent you from
working freely with the knowledge, "just" with the device.

And your definition has more or less the same problem as mine.
Knowledge may be secret, so something may be knowledge for some people
and not for others, just like something may be easier to change for
some people than others. Compiled proprietary software is software in a
degenerated way, but it is. And the source is only available for some,
for the rest of us it is very opaque information, you can hardly call
that knowledge at all. So it is knowledge for the authors, not for
the users.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
With this definition, programs are of course software, firmware is
software, verilog descriptions of a CPU are software, board designs are
software (but not the boards themselves), and also culture, literature,
music etc. are software, and kitchen recipes, but not the actual dishes
that you eat.
ACK. Your definition and mine are very close. In fact you just have to
add a fact to make them roughly equivalent: Knowledge is easier to
change than atoms. (it works better with information, some knowledge
is harder to erase). This is not a general truth (or stomach
rearranges atoms as easily as our brain rearranges knowledge), but I
think it applies to computers.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
This way, the difference is a deep one: if I give somebody a piece of
hardware, I no longer have it, in a zero sum game, while if I give
somebody a piece of software we both have it and the total value for
humanity has grown.
That kind of properties is very useful to retain yes, and comes easier
from your definition than mine (if you forget I firstly said software
is information).
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Of course, under this definition, today in 2016 it is impossible to buy
a computer¹ whose software is completely free.
Yes, with my definition it is quite difficult too, but not quite impossible.
In fact that's why I'm here.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
My personal pragmatic position is that buying (and in certain case
using) things is ok from a freedom point of view as long as they
have a bit more free software than the current standard (either as
sold or after I've changed stuff that is easy — and legal — *for me*
to change, depending on the context and the kind of market).
So your goal is your utopy? Or do you think you could eventually
achieve it?

I'm not sure I understand you. What you want is a computer, so a
certain collection of atoms, that embodies some information and you
want to be able to freely use all the embodied knowledge. So for you
that includes software and hardware designs (both are the computer
software for you, right?). An then the hardware designs have been
applied to atoms according to some electronics process you may also
want to know, along with the physical properties of gates, materials,
and energies. And the physical models that describe how the properties
interact dynamically, so basically all of chemistry, physics and
electronics solved for good and finished ?

So what you call a computer whose software is completely free is what
I'd call a computer whose software is completely free and its hardware
follows free hardware designs available to you ? Or what's exactly
the knowledge you want to be free to use ? (more than yesterday, I
guess, ever more).

I want that too (I just may call it something different?).
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
e.g. in 2016 an A20 based board that respects the definition of Open
Hardware from OSHWA is fine, but if in 2026 we'll have a SoC for which
the verilog sources are available a board based on a proprietary chip
like the A20 won't be fine anymore, even if I have no practical way to
get advantage of the difference.
I like your future :)


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Elena ``of Valhalla''
2016-08-25 15:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
In this specific case, additionally, the dividing line is placed in such
a way that IMHO gives advantages to state-sponsored attackers (for whom
changing code stored on ROM is not exactly easy, but somewhat feasible)
and even technical users (that in most case don't have access to the
tools needed to do so).
You mean intercepting postal packets or sabotages in douanes or check
control points ? I don't know how to protect from that (at least
without imposing too cumbersone measures to normal use by the
legitimate user).
yes, stuff like that, and I don't really know how to protect from them
either.

But surely having the code in ROM doesn't really help in that case,
while when the code is loaded at runtime one could in theory just load
new code from a different source. Doesn't really work in practice
because there is something else accepting that code that is stored in
something like a ROM and could have been changed to silently ignore it.
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
[...]
In my message I called software "information", not knowledge, because
in the uses I've come across knowledge is reserved for the
interiosation of interrelated information by humans, it is what
information provokes in you (and let's not get started in strong
AI). But yes, if you take humans into the picture, software is
knowledge and it is even culture.
Yes, information may be a better term, altought they can be seen as two
faces of the same entity (and thus, don't change the set of things that
are hardware or software under the original definition)
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
So a tivoized device may not hide any
information or knowledge but it may prevent you from changing the
representation that the device will use. It won't prevent you from
working freely with the knowledge, "just" with the device.
Well, a tivoized device will probably allow me to work freely with some
of the information, but not other (the ones involved with preventing you
access to the device itself, for one thing)
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
And your definition has more or less the same problem as mine.
Knowledge may be secret, so something may be knowledge for some people
and not for others, just like something may be easier to change for
some people than others. Compiled proprietary software is software in a
degenerated way, but it is. And the source is only available for some,
for the rest of us it is very opaque information, you can hardly call
that knowledge at all. So it is knowledge for the authors, not for
the users.
Yes, software is information/knowledge, not necessarily *free*
knowledge, but in my definition it's stuff for which it is reasonable to
ask the question "is it free?"
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
My personal pragmatic position is that buying (and in certain case
using) things is ok from a freedom point of view as long as they
have a bit more free software than the current standard (either as
sold or after I've changed stuff that is easy — and legal — *for me*
to change, depending on the context and the kind of market).
So your goal is your utopy? Or do you think you could eventually
achieve it?
In theory, I think that it could be reached, but I'm not sure if the
market forces will ever allow it.

I would be happy even to see constant improvements, even if the actual
aim wasn't reached in my lifetime, so yes, there is a bit of utopy in
it.
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
I'm not sure I understand you. What you want is a computer, so a
certain collection of atoms, that embodies some information and you
want to be able to freely use all the embodied knowledge. So for you
that includes software and hardware designs (both are the computer
software for you, right?). An then the hardware designs have been
applied to atoms according to some electronics process you may also
want to know, along with the physical properties of gates, materials,
and energies. And the physical models that describe how the properties
interact dynamically, so basically all of chemistry, physics and
electronics solved for good and finished ?
well, no, I would stop at the process phase, described in a way that can
be reproduced, including the building of relevant tools, even if in
practice some of this information is going to be too expensive for most
people to actually use (and, more importantly, there are serious
practical issues with bootstrapping the equipement required to do so).

In the basic sciences there are significant issues with the
dissemination of information, but at least people working on them tend
to share the principles that knowledge should be available and not kept
secret. And there is no need for them to be solved for good: engeneering
has been working on phisical principles that are wrong for a long time,
and continue to do so with success (afaik e.g. bridges are still being
build while happily ignoring quantum mechanics and relativity :) )
Of course, this is basically to say, that I also want this information /
knowledge to be free, up to the limits of human knowledge, but I think
that as an issue it's transversal to the actual building of free computers.
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
So what you call a computer whose software is completely free is what
I'd call a computer whose software is completely free and its hardware
follows free hardware designs available to you ? Or what's exactly
the knowledge you want to be free to use ? (more than yesterday, I
guess, ever more).
I want that too (I just may call it something different?).
yes

under my definition, you could say that "free hardware" is hardware for
which the "design software" is free.
--
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2016-08-25 15:49:55 UTC
Permalink
thank you to everyone for chipping in, here, i have to run, i'm on the
move for the day, i'll be able to catch up over the next few days.
l.

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Xavi Drudis Ferran
2016-08-25 16:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
So a tivoized device may not hide any
information or knowledge but it may prevent you from changing the
representation that the device will use. It won't prevent you from
working freely with the knowledge, "just" with the device.
Well, a tivoized device will probably allow me to work freely with some
of the information, but not other (the ones involved with preventing you
access to the device itself, for one thing)
No, I don't know what happened historically, but it is theoretically
possible to envision a signature check system in some inalterable ROM
that enforces tivoization, is published and even freely licensed, but
yet it prevents you to exercise your freedoms on the device.

For me that would be the hardware preventing your free use of the
device. For you it might be the software, but the point is you won't
be able to use the device as you should be able, even if you could
change the signature check system and build another device that lets
you do it.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Yes, software is information/knowledge, not necessarily *free*
Software could be free and secret (if everyone involved wants to keep
it secret including all users) but that extreme is beside the point.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
knowledge, but in my definition it's stuff for which it is reasonable to
ask the question "is it free?"
And hardware can't be free ? You mean because it can't be replicated ?
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
In theory, I think that it could be reached, but I'm not sure if the
market forces will ever allow it.
I would be happy even to see constant improvements, even if the actual
aim wasn't reached in my lifetime, so yes, there is a bit of utopy in
it.
Ok
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
well, no, I would stop at the process phase, described in a way that can
be reproduced, including the building of relevant tools, even if in
practice some of this information is going to be too expensive for most
people to actually use (and, more importantly, there are serious
practical issues with bootstrapping the equipement required to do so).
I see. So yes, achievable in theory.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
under my definition, you could say that "free hardware" is hardware for
which the "design software" is free.
In mine too. The design of the hardware is modifiable, so it is
software. I think the difference is that when I say "free software
for this computer" I don't include hardware designs, when I say "free
hardware" I mean hardware for which there are free designs.

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Sen

Stefan Monnier
2016-08-25 13:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
For me anything hard to change is hardware, anything easy to change is
software. Hence the sensible FSF position on software on ROMs
being like hardware and software in EEPROMs being like software.
[...]
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
A definition that I like comes from Renzo Davoli and is basically that
hardware is made of atoms, software is knowledge.
ROMs are made of atoms whose internal organization defines the behavior.
And while you can pass to someone a copy of the "source" (or binary) for
that ROM, it's not the same as the ROM (the person has to build the ROM
based on that code), so I think Renzo's definition very agrees that ROM
is hardware.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Of course, under this definition, today in 2016 it is impossible to buy
a computer¹ whose software is completely free.
I think the usual A20 boards qualify: they have some ROM holding
proprietary code within the SoC, but since that's hardware it's OK, and
you can run pure Free Software on it (you may need proprietary software
if you want to use MALI, and you may also need proprietary firmware to
use surrounding wifi chips, of course).


Stefan


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Russell Hyer
2016-08-25 13:41:13 UTC
Permalink
I think this talk of atoms that treats physical things like they exist
and information as if it were a figment of reality misses the
fundamental physics of it that information does exist (unless it gets
recorded and output on TV)

Russell
If failing were hard it would be called falling
Post by Stefan Monnier
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Post by Xavi Drudis Ferran
For me anything hard to change is hardware, anything easy to change is
software. Hence the sensible FSF position on software on ROMs
being like hardware and software in EEPROMs being like software.
[...]
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
A definition that I like comes from Renzo Davoli and is basically that
hardware is made of atoms, software is knowledge.
ROMs are made of atoms whose internal organization defines the behavior.
And while you can pass to someone a copy of the "source" (or binary) for
that ROM, it's not the same as the ROM (the person has to build the ROM
based on that code), so I think Renzo's definition very agrees that ROM
is hardware.
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Of course, under this definition, today in 2016 it is impossible to buy
a computer¹ whose software is completely free.
I think the usual A20 boards qualify: they have some ROM holding
proprietary code within the SoC, but since that's hardware it's OK, and
you can run pure Free Software on it (you may need proprietary software
if you want to use MALI, and you may also need proprietary firmware to
use surrounding wifi chips, of course).
Stefan
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Elena ``of Valhalla''
2016-08-25 14:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Monnier
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
A definition that I like comes from Renzo Davoli and is basically that
hardware is made of atoms, software is knowledge.
ROMs are made of atoms whose internal organization defines the behavior.
yes, and the description of that internal organization, whatever the
format, is software
Post by Stefan Monnier
And while you can pass to someone a copy of the "source" (or binary) for
that ROM, it's not the same as the ROM (the person has to build the ROM
based on that code), so I think Renzo's definition very agrees that ROM
is hardware.
of course the actual chip is hardware, but if somebody had the
information stored on it in some other form, with the right tools and
the right skills they could "easily" remove those atoms and change them
with other atoms with the same information — or with a modified version
of it.

It's not that different from a paper book: there you have an arrangement
of ink atoms on a paper substrate that is hardware, but the knowledge
provided by the book is software.
As with a paper book, sharing the information/knowledge is not as
trivial as with information in a non-encoumbered digital format, but
with some work it is perfectly feasible to do so in a way that doesn't
deprive the original owner of it.

And besides, also hard disks (and solid state memories, etc.) store
stuff as an arrangement of atoms, it's just that those also provide a
convenient interface both to read and to change it.
Post by Stefan Monnier
Post by Elena ``of Valhalla''
Of course, under this definition, today in 2016 it is impossible to buy
a computer¹ whose software is completely free.
I think the usual A20 boards qualify: they have some ROM holding
proprietary code within the SoC, but since that's hardware it's OK, and
you can run pure Free Software on it (you may need proprietary software
if you want to use MALI, and you may also need proprietary firmware to
use surrounding wifi chips, of course).
I don't think so, at all.

The knowledge on how the A20 internals are made is not freely available:
even if I had access to the right expensive equipment I couldn't legally
produce one. The same applies to the handful of task-specific chips that
those boards usually have.
Then there is that proprietary code, that is stored in hardware, but is
very much software.
And then of course whatever comes around it (mali drivers, wifi chips,
disk firmwares, etc.)

The A20 boards are fine (for me) today because there is nothing that is
significantly more free that is able to do the same things, just like
running GNU on a proprietary kernel was fine in the 80s before a free
kernel was available, but it still very far from the ideal.
--
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Paul Boddie
2016-08-24 11:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-August/001865.html
very similarly minded people, unfortunately using the word "open
source" in reference to what are clearly libre principles. if anyone
has time i'd really appreciate some help... but also i think people
here would genuinely appreciate the opportunity to debate, also
there's people there from "open ecology" and many other areas.
I might subscribe and add something. Even if I end up telling people things
they already know and/or don't care about, I can always recycle the content
for a blog post later. ;-)

Hardware people like to tell everyone that hardware isn't software. I was
looking at Verilog tutorials and resources a while ago and "this isn't like
programming" came up quite a bit. (I suspect that many people writing such
things haven't done the kind of programming that computer science graduates
will have done: we don't spend three or four years dabbling in C and Visual
Basic. They wouldn't write such things if they knew about logic programming,
functional programming, software specification languages, and so on.)

But while I think that there is agreement (or acceptance) that the rules are
different with hardware, that patents tend to be used to limit "cloning" of
products, licences like the CERN Open Hardware Licence attempt to oblige those
using "open source hardware" designs to make and distribute products under
certain conditions. On the one hand, people say that you can at most only
infringe the copyright of the designs if you just take them and make a
"cloned" product (which is why they like patents), whereas the CERN OHL
actually seems to assume that you can impose conditions on the production of a
design through a copyright licence.

(Also, patents get used to define how the product is made when trying to
prevent "cloning", which is supposedly what various industries rely on instead
of copyright, even though I imagine that some industries may be seeking highly
unethical patents that do nothing more than describe discoveries.)

Arguing about naming could be a waste of time. If "open source hardware" gets
some kind of message across without misunderstanding, then maybe it is
sufficient. However, having seen use of "open hardware" discouraged and "open
source hardware" encouraged instead, I predict a similar level of wider
confusion and uncertainty as the widely-debased term "open source" attached to
"hardware" gets used in all sorts of unintended ways. "Open" plus something is
also rather untrustworthy: it may have referred to interoperability a while
ago, but now it gives no guarantees at all; terms like "open standards" have
tried to retain their credibility, but there are still controversies about
"RAND", "FRAND" and other nasty traps that give claims of openness little face
value.

Paul

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Xavi Drudis Ferran
2016-08-24 15:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Boddie
Hardware people like to tell everyone that hardware isn't software. I was
looking at Verilog tutorials and resources a while ago and "this isn't like
programming" came up quite a bit. (I suspect that many people writing such
things haven't done the kind of programming that computer science graduates
will have done: we don't spend three or four years dabbling in C and Visual
Basic. They wouldn't write such things if they knew about logic programming,
functional programming, software specification languages, and so on.)
ACK
Post by Paul Boddie
But while I think that there is agreement (or acceptance) that the rules are
different with hardware, that patents tend to be used to limit "cloning" of
products, licences like the CERN Open Hardware Licence attempt to oblige those
using "open source hardware" designs to make and distribute products under
certain conditions. On the one hand, people say that you can at most only
infringe the copyright of the designs if you just take them and make a
"cloned" product (which is why they like patents), whereas the CERN OHL
actually seems to assume that you can impose conditions on the production of a
design through a copyright licence.
I always thought this was nuts (copyright on the design having anything to do with
the production of the designed thing) but then I came across one of those news
pieces that reveal the awe of human stupidity:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/08/uk-copyright-extension-designed-objects-3d-printing/
Post by Paul Boddie
Arguing about naming could be a waste of time. If "open source hardware" gets
some kind of message across without misunderstanding, then maybe it is
sufficient. However, having seen use of "open hardware" discouraged and "open
source hardware" encouraged instead, I predict a similar level of wider
confusion and uncertainty as the widely-debased term "open source" attached to
"hardware" gets used in all sorts of unintended ways. "Open" plus something is
also rather untrustworthy: it may have referred to interoperability a while
ago, but now it gives no guarantees at all; terms like "open standards" have
tried to retain their credibility, but there are still controversies about
"RAND", "FRAND" and other nasty traps that give claims of openness little face
value.
I don't really know if one can easily extrapolate from software to
hardware. I would concentrate (if I have the time to investigate it)
in what are the definitions attached to the terms and what are the
uses around. If open source hardware sticks, and carries a definition
along the 4 freedoms, and people use it well it might even work
against "open source software" original intent. One day it might
backfire from hardware to software and might start expecting freedom
from open source software too...

I'd be more interested in thing like if an open source hardware
license or definition requires free software too produce the design,
or to operate the machine or something, that it is called free
software and not open source software.

The world "open" is too open to interpretation, I think we should treat
each usage independently "open source software" may mean something
not really related to "open source hardware" and "open standards".

And "libre hardware" can be as easily abused as "open source hardware"
if there is money to be made abusing it.

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Christopher Havel
2016-08-24 15:46:50 UTC
Permalink
I don't know how helpful this is, but here are my usual definitions. For
the record, I'm a hardware kinda guy.

* If I can touch it, it's hardware.
* If it's made of code/programming, and it's on computer media, inside a
computer, or in a ROM chip that runs the system, it's software, *except*...
* ...if it's in a chip that isn't a ROM (or acting as ROM), it's firmware.
* ...if it's in a ROM chip (or a chip acting as ROM), *and* it's not got
the controlling program for the entire system, it's also firmware.
* ...if it's hardcopy, it's of course a program listing.
* ...if it's not a binary, it's of course source code.

"Acting as a ROM" covers Flash memory (which is technically nonvolatile
RAM, aka NVRAM) and systems that (stupidly IMO) use battery-backed static
RAM instead of a real ROM -- and other similar schemes that I'm not aware
of.

The 'if it's in a ROM chip and it runs the system, it's software' idea
covers systems that run an OS from ROM, whether or not they act as one
would recognize a computer in the modern sense. (It specifically excludes
the PC BIOS, though, and things like it.) That covers eg the Commodore 64
--and, in fact, most late-'70s and '80s computers-- but it also covers the
6502-based system I'm using to learn a bit about how those are programmed
at an assembly level, even though *that* system's entire purpose and
function is to push a hard-coded ASCII message to a weird TTL-serial LCD I
own. Some argument could be made that I should shut up and toss these use
cases in with firmware, but for some reason I can't adequately explain,
that somehow doesn't feel right.
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