Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Louis Pearson
2017-04-14 05:00:52 UTC
Permalink
https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone

Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How much
work would
it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
interested in a
device like that.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-14 05:36:46 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Louis Pearson
Post by Louis Pearson
https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone
totally coool. uses a SIM800 quad-band GSM module. really good choice.
Post by Louis Pearson
Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How much
work would
it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
interested in a
device like that.
yeah you and me both - the thing is: the cards are 5mm x 86 x 55mm (or
thereabouts) which means that by the time you've created a stack of
all the components (screen, battery, lcd, keypad or touchpanel) you're
looking at something like 17 to 20mm in height.

so that's why i wanted to do something using EOMA50 (reuse of
CompactFlash) as the Cards would be 3mm x 43 x 33 (or thereabouts) -
that means having to source a suitable SoC. i found one about 18
months ago - the Ingenic M150.... only ARGH for Ingenic to STOP
SELLING IT, damnit.

the M150 was perfect as it contained its own on-board SDRAM (128mb of
DDR2), and the developer board reference design was something like 25
x 20mm.

anyway i am still on the lookout for similar SoCs, and have created this page:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/

the idea there is to use an LCD that has *dual* control interfaces:
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL. the SPI interface would be wired directly to an EC
(e.g. an STM32F072 which i really like) which would have the ABSOLUTE
most basic of interfaces and functionality ("dumbphone" mode), and
also take care of the audio, but when the EOMA50 Card was plugged in
the LCD would be switched over to RGB/TTL mode and you'd have a
"smart" phone.

it'd be quite complicated hardware - phones always are - but a lot of
fun. if you're not familiar with how INSANELY complex phone hardware
is, have a look at the reverse-engineering effort i was involved in,
back around 2003, with the HTC Universal. the AKAI 4641 audio IC had
SEVEN separate audio paths. i had no idea that there was actually
*yet another* audio multiplexing IC (it hadn't been identified at the
time) from TI...

https://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=HTC_Universal/Research&ajax=0

l.

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GaCuest
2017-04-14 10:05:40 UTC
Permalink
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
Something like this?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-16 10:42:01 UTC
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Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
Something like this?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.

i've got a list of their LCDs, here:
http://rhombus-tech.net/suppliers/shenzen/frida_lcd/

they do a very nice 3.9in 800x480 IPS LCD, the only thing those
dual-row 0.3mm pitch connectors are a bitch. FRD350H45142-CT has a
45Pin FPC, with a Capacitive Panel.

l.

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Wolfram Kahl
2017-04-16 15:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Something like this?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
That's just a bit less than 3.5in diagonal --- I at least do not enjoy
operating such tiny touchscreens with >0.5in fingers...

Wikipedia confirms my experience:

| A resistive touchscreen operated with a stylus will generally offer
| greater pointing precision than a capacitive touchscreen operated with
| a finger.

A small (up to at least 5in) capacitive touchscreen is therefore
outright unattractive for me --- perhaps somebody puts together
a portable EOMA housing with a resistive touchscreen and a stylus? ;-)


Wolfram

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GaCuest
2017-04-16 23:23:03 UTC
Permalink
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
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Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
Something like this?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)

I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.

On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 00:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.

A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.

If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?

I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 06:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Luke Gibson
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
it's always been a long-term goal of mine to create some form of
globally-scalable wireless mesh network. to that end i tracked down a
copy of the IEEE 802.22 standard as it represents the best foundation
that computer scientists have yet developed, tested and deployed.
range of mobile units: 5km. range of static (base station) units:
60km.

l.

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Philip Hands
2017-04-17 08:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by John Luke Gibson
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
it's always been a long-term goal of mine to create some form of
globally-scalable wireless mesh network. to that end i tracked down a
copy of the IEEE 802.22 standard as it represents the best foundation
that computer scientists have yet developed, tested and deployed.
60km.
Before you spend too much time on reinventing wheels (and discovering
that some theoretically perfect wheels turn or to be a bit square when
confronted with reality), you should take a good at existing
deployments of mesh wireless.

Freifunk in Germany is rather popular, and works rather well (although
it generally is not making very many wireless links before it hits a
wired uplink.

https://map.hamburg.freifunk.net/

There's the Serval Project in AU/NZ where they've done quite a lot of
testing of a self-assembling phone system that uses peer-to-peer WiFi
between phones -- their expectations that one ought to be able to make
phone calls have been mostly ditched IIRC, as they found that it works
much better if they use store-and-forward of SMS for most communication.

http://www.servalproject.org/

Related to that, there's https://villagetelco.org/

http://battlemesh.org/ is also something to keep an eye on.

Obviously, using longer range radios to run that on is a nice idea, but
probably not the hard bit. BTW, I notice that in Hamburg there are
people getting 5km+ range out of off-the-shelf TP-Link outdoor wifi
units that cost less than 40 EUR at each end (that's what some of the
longer lines are, at the south of the map above -- you can click the
lines to find out).

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 09:37:15 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Philip Hands
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by John Luke Gibson
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
it's always been a long-term goal of mine to create some form of
globally-scalable wireless mesh network. to that end i tracked down a
copy of the IEEE 802.22 standard as it represents the best foundation
that computer scientists have yet developed, tested and deployed.
60km.
Before you spend too much time on reinventing wheels (and discovering
that some theoretically perfect wheels turn or to be a bit square when
confronted with reality), you should take a good at existing
deployments of mesh wireless.
Freifunk in Germany is rather popular, and works rather well (although
it generally is not making very many wireless links before it hits a
wired uplink.
https://map.hamburg.freifunk.net/
that's totally awesome. thanks for mentioning these existing projects, phil.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 06:56:58 UTC
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crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
(for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
not really.... :) ok if you're expecting 48khz 24-bit stereo then
forget it. 12 to 14-bit 16khz ... no problem. GSM is waaay below
that anyway.

l.

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GaCuest
2017-04-17 10:05:54 UTC
Permalink
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 8:57:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
(for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
not really.... :) ok if you're expecting 48khz 24-bit stereo then
forget it. 12 to 14-bit 16khz ... no problem. GSM is waaay below
that anyway.
I mean it is difficult in the sense that you have to provide power
to EOMA68 and to STM32 separately, so that only the
STM32 or the EOMA68 can work when you want.

Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 12:29:48 UTC
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Post by GaCuest
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 8:57:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
(for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
not really.... :) ok if you're expecting 48khz 24-bit stereo then
forget it. 12 to 14-bit 16khz ... no problem. GSM is waaay below
that anyway.
I mean it is difficult in the sense that you have to provide power
to EOMA68 and to STM32 separately,
not difficult at all: STM32 receives 3.3v regulated power
(permanently), Card slot receives power under the control of the
STM32. exactly like in the laptop.
Post by GaCuest
so that only the
STM32 or the EOMA68 can work when you want.
why would the power need to be mutually exclusive? the STM32 is
low-power enough to be left permanently on, and can be suspended to
ultra-low-power sleep state on demand.
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.

l.

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GaCuest
2017-04-17 18:26:35 UTC
Permalink
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 14:30:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
Could you use one (poor quality) speaker for the STM32F and when
you connect an EOMA68, could you use a CM108AH with one
(or two) good speakers?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 00:33:06 UTC
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Post by GaCuest
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 14:30:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
Could you use one (poor quality) speaker for the STM32F and when
you connect an EOMA68, could you use a CM108AH with one
(or two) good speakers?
might be a bit awkward, multiplexing the analog power-pathways (the
CM108AH drives its outputs @ either 100mA or 500mA) but it's doable.

the other alternatives are:

* to add a proper I2S audio driver IC (from maxim for example).
however as these typically include a tensilica DSP (tensilica have
over 1 billion licensed sales of their DSPs, mostly in audio ICs)
they're typically relatively costly.

* to drive something like a CM108AH directly from the EC. this
gets... a little hair-raising with the USB paths.

* to find an alternative EC.

l.

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GaCuest
2017-04-18 09:17:12 UTC
Permalink
El 18 de abril de 2017 a las 2:33:42, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
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Post by GaCuest
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 14:30:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
Could you use one (poor quality) speaker for the STM32F and when
you connect an EOMA68, could you use a CM108AH with one
(or two) good speakers?
might be a bit awkward, multiplexing the analog power-pathways (the
* to add a proper I2S audio driver IC (from maxim for example).
however as these typically include a tensilica DSP (tensilica have
over 1 billion licensed sales of their DSPs, mostly in audio ICs)
they're typically relatively costly.
* to drive something like a CM108AH directly from the EC. this
gets... a little hair-raising with the USB paths.
* to find an alternative EC.
Maybe it's easier 3 speakers, a basic speaker directly for the
STM32F (when using only the STM32F) and two good
speakers, connected to the CM108H, when you use the
EOMA68 (in this case the speaker of the STM32F would not work).

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 10:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by GaCuest
Maybe it's easier 3 speakers, a basic speaker directly for the
STM32F (when using only the STM32F) and two good
speakers, connected to the CM108H, when you use the
EOMA68 (in this case the speaker of the STM32F would not work).
as a phone that would be... odd.

but not totally unprecedented. the HTC Universal had an insanely
ridiculous number of audio paths. something like SEVEN separate
outputs and FIVE inputs - no wonder it needed not just the AK4641 but
also a separate TI audio multiplexer IC.

because the screen was flippable there were two separate mics and
earpiece speakers, one each on each side. then it had separate stereo
speakers built into the base. then there was a headphone jack. and a
car stereo mode (with a cable to plug in), *and* bluetooth.

if the chosen EC were capable of handling I2S then it would be
reasonable to drop in something like an AK4641 or a really really
basic AC97 Audio IC, then use the USB connection between the EC and
EOMA68 to emulate USB-audio: job done.

just doing some quick google searches "STM32F072 I2S" it appears that
some people have actually successfully done this - one person
(admittedly) with an STM32F4 not the F0. on the chibios.com web site
someone even posted working demo code.

l.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-18 02:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Reinventing the internet isn't reinventing the wheel when on an
ethical basis we can't expect people to be ignorant of what they are
running on their devices. Without having a centralized authority or
admin to load commands and tasks on "modems" over the air and "manage"
the network, the system needs to be designed to be ran by it's users.
Of course if can mostly be automatic, but we must expect every user to
program how their own device interacts with the network.. That is a
must.
Post by GaCuest
El 17 de abril de 2017 a las 14:30:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
Could you use one (poor quality) speaker for the STM32F and when
you connect an EOMA68, could you use a CM108AH with one
(or two) good speakers?
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Allan Mwenda
2017-04-16 11:32:47 UTC
Permalink
The fact that its a Pi already nukes freedom, otherwise nice idea
Post by Louis Pearson
https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone
Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How much
work would
it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
interested in a
device like that.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Allan Mwenda
2017-04-16 11:28:13 UTC
Permalink
The fact that its a Pi already nukes freedom, otherwise nice idea
Post by Louis Pearson
https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone
Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How much
work would
it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
interested in a
device like that.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Adam Van Ymeren
2017-04-17 00:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses? Either via bitcoin type system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address scarcity.


  Original Message  
From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
To: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Reply-to: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.

A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of


bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.

If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?

I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-***@files.phcomp.co.uk
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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 03:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.

Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.

_

Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses? Either via bitcoin type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to arm-netbo
John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 03:55:16 UTC
Permalink
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses? Either via bitcoin type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments
John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 04:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.

Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.

_

Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
"capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
simply out of the goodness of doing so........ which is something a
noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
value is in our decision.
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses? Either via bitcoin type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send large attachments to ar
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 07:09:24 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
a word / point-of-order: you've provided 3 copies. 1st message.
top-posted reply to yourself (2nd copy), modified version, which
people will see *after* they read the first and second copies.

now, what could happen as a result of the triple-posting is that
there will be now no less than *three* separate conversation threads
in people's mailers as well as the archives (permanently).

can i suggest in future that you:

(a) cut irrelevant context
(b) avoid top-posting
(c) reply *only* with corrections to the relevant sections inline
(i.e. use a and b above)

l.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-18 02:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
a word / point-of-order: you've provided 3 copies. 1st message.
top-posted reply to yourself (2nd copy), modified version, which
people will see *after* they read the first and second copies.
now, what could happen as a result of the triple-posting is that
there will be now no less than *three* separate conversation threads
in people's mailers as well as the archives (permanently).
(a) cut irrelevant context
(b) avoid top-posting
(c) reply *only* with corrections to the relevant sections inline
(i.e. use a and b above)
l.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Thank you for the advice, Luke. I will try that in the future!

_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
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Christopher Havel
2017-04-18 03:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Mr Gibson, with all due respect (and forgive me for speaking out of a
half-stupor -- I did way, way too much today, and it's almost 11pm -- in my
defense, I solemnly swear I'm about to go to bed) --

There is a vast group of people (my mother is sadly amongst them) who are
of the belief that a perfectly sufficient quantity of "computer literacy"
is the ability to turn the machine on and off, use some sort of email
client, word processor, and web browser (without necessarily knowing the
names of these programs) and being within arm's reach of "someone smart"
who can entirely take over in times where genuine technical aptitude is
required. Moreover, *these people actually believe, in essentially
unshakable form, that they are freeing themselves (and everyone else) of
some sort of massive burden by embracing the level of technological
ignorance that they do.*

You can't really reinvent the Internet (or much of computer anything --
although, for better or worse, EOMA-68 plays well with their philosophy, at
least on a hardware level) without addressing that demographic of people in
some manner which is, quite frankly, likely to be distinctly unpleasant to
all involved...

...so (pardon my utter lack of eloquence here) how do you propose to deal
with such people, since they'll be the vast majority of your
customers/clients/constituency/etc..?

I'd offer up my thoughts on the matter, but they're not liable to be all
that coherent right now -- so, instead, I'll keep my mouth shut so as to
avoid potentially getting my foot caught in there... "better to remain
silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all
doubt"!

Alright, good night, everybody...!
Louis Pearson
2017-04-18 04:11:55 UTC
Permalink
If you want to reinvent the Internet, you might consider looking at the
GNUnet
project. I don't claim to be an expert on it or anything it talks about,
but from
what I understand about it, GNUnet is trying to reinvent the internet to be
more decentralized, private, and efficient. Also look at
http://secushare.org/
and http://youbroketheinternet.org/
Post by Christopher Havel
Mr Gibson, with all due respect (and forgive me for speaking out of a
half-stupor -- I did way, way too much today, and it's almost 11pm -- in my
defense, I solemnly swear I'm about to go to bed) --
There is a vast group of people (my mother is sadly amongst them) who are
of the belief that a perfectly sufficient quantity of "computer literacy"
is the ability to turn the machine on and off, use some sort of email
client, word processor, and web browser (without necessarily knowing the
names of these programs) and being within arm's reach of "someone smart"
who can entirely take over in times where genuine technical aptitude is
required. Moreover, *these people actually believe, in essentially
unshakable form, that they are freeing themselves (and everyone else) of
some sort of massive burden by embracing the level of technological
ignorance that they do.*
You can't really reinvent the Internet (or much of computer anything --
although, for better or worse, EOMA-68 plays well with their philosophy, at
least on a hardware level) without addressing that demographic of people in
some manner which is, quite frankly, likely to be distinctly unpleasant to
all involved...
...so (pardon my utter lack of eloquence here) how do you propose to deal
with such people, since they'll be the vast majority of your
customers/clients/constituency/etc..?
I'd offer up my thoughts on the matter, but they're not liable to be all
that coherent right now -- so, instead, I'll keep my mouth shut so as to
avoid potentially getting my foot caught in there... "better to remain
silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all
doubt"!
Alright, good night, everybody...!
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 05:45:06 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Louis Pearson
Post by Louis Pearson
If you want to reinvent the Internet, you might consider looking at the
GNUnet
project. I don't claim to be an expert on it or anything it talks about, but
from
what I understand about it, GNUnet is trying to reinvent the internet to be
more decentralized, private, and efficient. Also look at
http://secushare.org/
and http://youbroketheinternet.org/
thank you for making me aware of these last two: i knew about gnunet.
there are many more, some focussed on secure distributed
decentralisation of dns domain name registration (solving all of the
known problems with current centralised dns registration in the
process), then there's the babel protocol, tinc... all the *pieces*
are there: they're just not in widespread use.

l.

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arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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Louis Pearson
2017-04-18 06:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Ah, sorry, I just realized that I may have spoke in a confusing manner. :X
SecuShare, youbroketheinternet, and gnunet are all related. From what I
understand, SecuShare and youbroketheinternet are focused on describing
what gnunet is intending to solve and create. Sorry if that wasn't made
clear!


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Louis Pearson
Post by Louis Pearson
If you want to reinvent the Internet, you might consider looking at the
GNUnet
project. I don't claim to be an expert on it or anything it talks about,
but
Post by Louis Pearson
from
what I understand about it, GNUnet is trying to reinvent the internet to
be
Post by Louis Pearson
more decentralized, private, and efficient. Also look at
http://secushare.org/
and http://youbroketheinternet.org/
thank you for making me aware of these last two: i knew about gnunet.
there are many more, some focussed on secure distributed
decentralisation of dns domain name registration (solving all of the
known problems with current centralised dns registration in the
process), then there's the babel protocol, tinc... all the *pieces*
are there: they're just not in widespread use.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 06:54:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Louis Pearson
Post by Louis Pearson
Ah, sorry, I just realized that I may have spoke in a confusing manner. :X
SecuShare, youbroketheinternet, and gnunet are all related. From what I
understand, SecuShare and youbroketheinternet are focused on describing
what gnunet is intending to solve and create. Sorry if that wasn't made
clear!
ah ok :) still useful.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-18 07:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Indeed! Chris, I believe the issue to actually be linguistic in
nature. I also believe that complexity requires either a thin spread
of attention with very little specialization or specialization which
depends very much on always being in arm's reach of "someone smarter".
Using a grand variety of intuitive, clever, and/or witty words to
describe perspectives on a computer, in such a way that is so diverse
that two individuals could use different words when describing the
same operation that they have performed hundreds of times with dozens
of people, and never once heard the other's choice of words when
talking to each other.

There is a great diversity of specializations in computers, Because
there is not a lot of ways looking at the same aspects. People will
intuitively not necessarily learn about that which is relevant to what
they do on a regular basis, but-rather they try to be creative with
the aspects of programming that they look at so-as to differentiate
themselves and not be carbon copies.

For many individuals without a creative appealing original
introduction into computers, I believe they are deeply concerned about
being less individual for starting a road headlong into being a
computer savant and consistently running the same path as many others,
and rather believe much as you pointed out that their ignorance is a
blessing on others, and as I would add, for the reason that it forces
computer savants to think creatively about creating a fresh
perspective of an old well-known aspect of computers.

In other words, we need to rethink everything several times over
without actually changing anything, then create a system where it
feels easy to rethink things, form new perspectives, and do things
differently. Also, create words which support analogies and help form
the skeletons of new perspectives on computer design decisions.
Post by Louis Pearson
Ah, sorry, I just realized that I may have spoke in a confusing manner. :X
SecuShare, youbroketheinternet, and gnunet are all related. From what I
understand, SecuShare and youbroketheinternet are focused on describing
what gnunet is intending to solve and create. Sorry if that wasn't made
clear!
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 12:45 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Louis Pearson
Post by Louis Pearson
If you want to reinvent the Internet, you might consider looking at the
GNUnet
project. I don't claim to be an expert on it or anything it talks about,
but
Post by Louis Pearson
from
what I understand about it, GNUnet is trying to reinvent the internet to
be
Post by Louis Pearson
more decentralized, private, and efficient. Also look at
http://secushare.org/
and http://youbroketheinternet.org/
thank you for making me aware of these last two: i knew about gnunet.
there are many more, some focussed on secure distributed
decentralisation of dns domain name registration (solving all of the
known problems with current centralised dns registration in the
process), then there's the babel protocol, tinc... all the *pieces*
are there: they're just not in widespread use.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 07:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Luke Gibson
For many individuals without a creative appealing original
introduction into computers, I believe they are deeply concerned about
being less individual for starting a road headlong into being a
computer savant and consistently running the same path as many others,
and rather believe much as you pointed out that their ignorance is a
blessing on others,
i feel that there's a couple of helpful categories here:

(a) (i) people who help themselves (only) and
(ii) people who help others

(b) (i) people who have been *trained* to *use* computers and
(ii) people who are willing to apply creativity to learn how to
program them.

i'm *definitely* in category (a-ii b-ii), and am looking for people of
category (a-ii) to help bring together people from *all* four
categories.

l.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-18 07:44:07 UTC
Permalink
I would subdivide (b-ii) into:

(b) (ii) people who are willing to apply creativity to learn how
to program them.
(1) people who seek out opportunities to apply
creativity to learn how to program.
(2) people who expect to be given opportunities to apply
creativity to learn how to program.


Also, I forgot to mention: Chris, sleep well my good fellow. Luke,
what are you still doing awake :P
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by John Luke Gibson
For many individuals without a creative appealing original
introduction into computers, I believe they are deeply concerned about
being less individual for starting a road headlong into being a
computer savant and consistently running the same path as many others,
and rather believe much as you pointed out that their ignorance is a
blessing on others,
(a) (i) people who help themselves (only) and
(ii) people who help others
(b) (i) people who have been *trained* to *use* computers and
(ii) people who are willing to apply creativity to learn how to
program them.
i'm *definitely* in category (a-ii b-ii), and am looking for people of
category (a-ii) to help bring together people from *all* four
categories.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 09:05:20 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by John Luke Gibson
Also, I forgot to mention: Chris, sleep well my good fellow. Luke,
what are you still doing awake :P
i'm in taiwan! it's 5pm here.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-18 09:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by John Luke Gibson
Also, I forgot to mention: Chris, sleep well my good fellow. Luke,
what are you still doing awake :P
i'm in taiwan! it's 5pm here.
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Ah, I saw in your reply it timestamped my message as around 8 am :P

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Allan Mwenda
2017-04-18 11:52:22 UTC
Permalink
The grandma who only reads pdfs is the best person to put on a completely libre device because **they won't go out of their way to lose their freedom** I'd get a parabola card for them ASAP.
The computer illiterate are another good target, because ** they are willing to learn without bias and can be taught the value of freedom** parabola cards ASAP to them as well
Then there's that guy whos knee deep in proprietary software and "can't switch won't switch" A fedora card is probably better for them.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:01 AM, John Luke Gibson
Post by John Luke Gibson
For many individuals without a creative appealing original
introduction into computers, I believe they are deeply concerned
about
Post by John Luke Gibson
being less individual for starting a road headlong into being a
computer savant and consistently running the same path as many
others,
Post by John Luke Gibson
and rather believe much as you pointed out that their ignorance is a
blessing on others,
(a) (i) people who help themselves (only) and
(ii) people who help others
(b) (i) people who have been *trained* to *use* computers and
(ii) people who are willing to apply creativity to learn how to
program them.
i'm *definitely* in category (a-ii b-ii), and am looking for people of
category (a-ii) to help bring together people from *all* four
categories.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 12:09:44 UTC
Permalink
's'good logic allan.
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Allan Mwenda
The grandma who only reads pdfs is the best person to put on a completely
libre device because **they won't go out of their way to lose their
freedom** I'd get a parabola card for them ASAP.
The computer illiterate are another good target, because ** they are willing
to learn without bias and can be taught the value of freedom** parabola
cards ASAP to them as well
Then there's that guy whos knee deep in proprietary software and "can't
switch won't switch" A fedora card is probably better for them.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by John Luke Gibson
For many individuals without a creative appealing original
introduction into computers, I believe they are deeply concerned about
being less individual for starting a road headlong into being a
computer savant and consistently running the same path as many others,
and rather believe much as you pointed out that their ignorance is a
blessing on others,
(a) (i) people who help themselves (only) and
(ii) people who help others
(b) (i) people who have been *trained* to *use* computers and
(ii) people who are willing to apply creativity to learn how to
program them.
i'm *definitely* in category (a-ii b-ii), and am looking for people of
category (a-ii) to help bring together people from *all* four
categories.
l.
________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
--
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 07:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Luke Gibson
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added),
i'm familiar with the microsoft network neighbourhood, having
implemented it back in 1996-1998 for samba-tng. it's well-known as a
"chatty" protocol (which is down to mis-configuration).

so it was pretty much universally hated.... so people dropped it.

then of course as the years go by people FORGET that the network
neighbourhood is one of the most amazingly resilient and strategically
fundamental resources that a network can have.

... so the free software community invented avahi and zeroconf.

and guess what? it's *just* as chatty, and just as hated. it's also
totally broken by design, failing to implement key strategic features
that would otherwise make it resilient.

the really fucking irritating thing, for me, is that it's based on an
extension of the DNS protocol.... JUST LIKE THE NETWORK NEIGHBOURHOOD.

*sigh*.

anyway. working out "addresses" - as well as publishing and
defending names - is a known and solved problem, john.

l.

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S
Adam Van Ymeren
2017-04-17 04:20:30 UTC
Permalink
I think I understand. So the issue is with the identity of the authority defining the addresses rather than the scarcity. IPv6 has enough addresses. I don't think we need a new technology for addressing machines. I think your issue is more with the authorities in charge of assigning addresses.

I think the two are separate issues, one technological and one regulatory/political.

  Original Message  
From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: April 17, 2017 12:07 AM
To: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Reply-to: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.

Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.

_

Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
"capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
simply out of the goodness of doing so........ which is something a
noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
value is in our decision.
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses?  Either via bitcoin
type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 04:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Yes, however don't discount that, in substituting out the need for
these authorities, one has to take into account that every individual
contributing should have some say in how much scarcity there is for
the resource they are contributing. That is the only way to "not need"
these authorities.
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
I think I understand. So the issue is with the identity of the authority
defining the addresses rather than the scarcity. IPv6 has enough addresses.
I don't think we need a new technology for addressing machines. I think
your issue is more with the authorities in charge of assigning addresses.
I think the two are separate issues, one technological and one
regulatory/political.
  Original Message
Sent: April 17, 2017 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
"capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
simply out of the goodness of doing so........ which is something a
noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
value is in our decision.
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses?  Either via bitcoin
type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
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John Luke Gibson
2017-04-17 04:37:42 UTC
Permalink
I also want to apologize for how horribly intimidating those sets of
parenthesizes must be for one whom has never seen one of those used
like that before outside of advanced and very nerd-y philosophy xD
Post by John Luke Gibson
Yes, however don't discount that, in substituting out the need for
these authorities, one has to take into account that every individual
contributing should have some say in how much scarcity there is for
the resource they are contributing. That is the only way to "not need"
these authorities.
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
I think I understand. So the issue is with the identity of the authority
defining the addresses rather than the scarcity. IPv6 has enough addresses.
I don't think we need a new technology for addressing machines. I think
your issue is more with the authorities in charge of assigning addresses.
I think the two are separate issues, one technological and one regulatory/political.
  Original Message
Sent: April 17, 2017 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
"capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
simply out of the goodness of doing so........ which is something a
noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
value is in our decision.
Post by John Luke Gibson
I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
begin reading it.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.
Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.
_
Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with "capitalism". I would like to
emphasize that this is not a concept of either "capitalism" or
"socialism" (or any their like currently being formed outside of the
occident) , (both of which rely on the fairly novel social construct
of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary fund"-management)} but-rather
simple self-sustainability. Of course, if at a given point the
collective infrastructure {(or atleast relevant parts thereof) ,
(with-which many people have agreed is acceptable for delivering
messages according to a system of determining which messages are given
the most priority that they have agreed is acceptable)} is
under-strained (or under-utilized, if you will) according to it's
maximum potential for helping people communicate, it should probably
begin to deliver messages "gratis" or simply out of the goodness of
doing so........ which is something a noob can plainly see the bitcoin
protocol tried to do by rewarding it's bitcoin miners, but failed to
realize: only sentient beings can effectively measure the potential
meaning to be had in helping another sentient being or the so-termed
"goodness" in doing so; that No protocol can account for what it's
like to help someone specific or every being one can; that It should
be up to every individual exactly who they help or what kind of Sybils
they help or to what degree and for what purpose. We are fundamentally
human, and we must remember our value is in our decision.
Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses?  Either via bitcoin
type
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address
scarcity.
  Original Message
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.
A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of
bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.
If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?
I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.
Post by GaCuest
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by GaCuest
El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
_______________________________________________
arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
Send larg
dumblob
2017-04-17 15:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
http://www.henryaudio.com/ - the components used in this device would be my
inspiration when it comes to audio quality
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 15:30:57 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by dumblob
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by GaCuest
Why not use the STM32F072 for audio on the laptop?
not good enough dynamic range and quality, and it is still necessary
to have a amplifier. i tried doing audio on an STM32F103RBT6 - i
learned that it would not be enough. i *almost* managed it though.
http://www.henryaudio.com/ - the components used in this device would be my
inspiration when it comes to audio quality
http://www.henryaudio.com/uploads/fact_sheet_mkII.pdf

AK4430

https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4430ET.pdf

$0.60 for 10pcs on aliexpress... no USB connecttion though

bear in mind cost-wise it's competing against the CM108AH which is
below $1 and includes the USB PHY, supports SP-DIF and other digital
PCM formats, headphone jack, line-in and out modes, microphone, and
some control/config pins. 16-bit DAC, 16-bit ADC, 44.1khz and 48khz
sampling, and a built-in power regulator so you only need to supply 5V
from USB.

l.

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arm-netbook mailing list arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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Adam Van Ymeren
2017-04-17 15:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Interesting. Any chance you can link to some documentation about the network neighbourhood protocol? Or outline what about it made it so resilient? Thanks!

  Original Message  
From: ***@lkcl.net
Sent: April 17, 2017 3:07 AM
To: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Reply-to: arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
Post by John Luke Gibson
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
{(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added),
i'm familiar with the microsoft network neighbourhood, having
implemented it back in 1996-1998 for samba-tng.  it's well-known as a
"chatty" protocol (which is down to mis-configuration).

so it was pretty much universally hated.... so people dropped it.

then of course as the years go by people FORGET that the network
neighbourhood is one of the most amazingly resilient and strategically
fundamental resources that a network can have.

... so the free software community invented avahi and zeroconf.

and guess what?  it's *just* as chatty, and just as hated.  it's also
totally broken by design, failing to implement key strategic features
that would otherwise make it resilient.

the really fucking irritating thing, for me, is that it's based on an
extension of the DNS protocol.... JUST LIKE THE NETWORK NEIGHBOURHOOD.

*sigh*.

anyway.  working out "addresses" - as well as publishing and
defending names - is a known and solved problem, john.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-17 15:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Van Ymeren
Interesting. Any chance you can link to some documentation about the network neighbourhood protocol? Or outline what about it made it so resilient? Thanks!
the first thing is: it was documented as rfc1001 / rfc1002.which is
an extension of NETBEUI (a layer 2 protocol) on top of TCP/IP. if
memory serves correctly this was done by IBM.

SMB was dropped *on top* of NBT, as a registered service. there are
actually several registered services, some equivalent to TCP and some
to UDP.

one of the things that was missing from rfc1001 / 1002 was "please
give me a full list of participants in a particular group". so
microsoft ended up adding an RPC function (on top of LANMAN, which was
on top of NamedPipes, which are on top of SMB which are on top of NBT
which are on top of TCP) whereby any participant in the network
neighbourhood can obtain a full list of participants in a group name
registration. typically this would involve contacting the Primary
Domain Controller to ask for a list of members of a "workgroup".

so that's some of the background.

specific features which make the network neighbourhood robust:

* the use of a central WINS server, similar to a DNS server. this
allowed for cross-subnet / cross-network spanning *without* requiring
UDP broadcasting to be enabled across subnets (which many networks DID
enable... causing mayhem in the process. the correct use of a WINS
server removed the need to screw with your network)

* the "name conflict" concept. if two parties try to register the
same name, they are REQUIRED to publish a "Name Conflict detected"
message, with associated user notification popups.

* scopes. this is equivalent to dns "zones" (and actually *uses* the
DNS "zone" field) and allows for isolation of networks of names even
on the same subnets. unfortunately microsoft fucked up and FAILED to
respect scope.... rendering the feature totally useless.

lastly it's worth noting that the network neighbourhood is so
comprehensive and complex that *every* single organisation that has
ever attempted to implement it has taken at least THREE YEARS to get
their implementation correct and bug-free.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-04-18 01:39:27 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Alexander Ross
Mozzwald is working on handheld using eoma68. Flat design with keyboard.
cool!

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