Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] EOMA50
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-20 21:05:45 UTC
Permalink
http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/CompactFlash#Table_of_EOMA-CF_pinouts

if you recall, someone kindly pointed out that USB3.1 does *not* need
two sets of Tx/Rx differential pairs but only one. so ironically that
means that four pins on an extremely low pincount standard are now
free. i thought, "ah ha! should add a 2nd USB2 to EOMA50!"

... but should it?

one of the things about SoCs that are that small, they can fit onto a
43x30mm PCB is: the probability of the pincount being high enough for
them to have two USB2 interfaces is... debatable. the GR8 definitely
does but that's just one SoC. and if it *doesn't*... then fitting a
USB hub on there to provide two USB2 interfaces is going to be a
bitch-and-a-half.

also, two new pins are definitely free: "by default" i would make
those EINT2 and EINT3 *but* the other option is to make them SPI data
lines 2 and 3 (for 4-bit DDR SPI).

choices, choices... i'm leaning towards 2 extra EINTs particularly as
i have an idea in mind for a modular smartphone, and the addition of
extra EINT-capable GPIO would allow a sub-module standard which has an
EINT line "per module". mind you a break-out GPIO device (such as oo
i dunno... a $1 STM32F!) is probably going to be needed for that
design concept anyway. bizarre, isn't it: you can either choose a
$1.50 dedicated GPIO breakout IC which only has 12 pins... or you can
choose a $1 EC which has 32 or 48 pins and has GPIO, USB, SPI, ADC,
DAC, I2C, UART... so bizarre.

anyway.

thoughts appreciated.

l.

---
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Christopher Havel
2017-05-20 21:18:09 UTC
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My vote is for them to be SPI lines. That means more/faster RAM, right? RAM
is the most 'visible' upgrade, performance-wise, that anyone can do to a
(currently regular) computer... I realize you can't upgrade RAM within an
EOMA card, but hey -- all the more reason to streamline it :)

A pity that we can't have a "modular" (socketed/slotted) EOMA68 card... I
realize CPU sockets are kind of going the way of the dodo, but I'd still
like to be able to at least upgrade the RAM if I want to, without building
myself a reflow toaster oven or some crap like that. I wouldn't say no to
EOMA-specific RAM modules -- heck, use those awful super-tiny
fiddly-as-crap Hirose connectors if ya have to (I hate 'em with a passion,
but they do friggin' work) -- OEMs did proprietary RAM modules on laptops
for years bordering on decades, back when you had to distinguish between
"luggable" (Osborne 1, Compaq Portable), "clamshell" (GRiD Compass, modern
junk), "partial clamshell" (IBM 5140 PC Convertible), etc... I have a
Toshiba 3400CT like that (it's an early clamshell with a 486 inside). I'll
never be able to afford a 16meg module for it, as a result, but (speaking
to the whole group here) I think our Luke has *ahem* a bit more dedication
to keeping things going and available for people, than Toshiba did back
then...!
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-20 22:35:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
My vote is for them to be SPI lines.
That means more/faster RAM, right?
RAM... where did you get that idea from... *thinks*... DDR (double
data rate), you might have confused that with the JEDEC RAM standards
named "DDR1,2,3,4"

so no it does not mean more/faster RAM.

SPI's 4-data-lines mode (which happens also to have optional
double-data-rate as part of the extension to SPI *on* those 4 data
lines) is an unusual rarely-used mode of SPI which isn't very often
supported on SoCs.

so if there was an EOMA50 housing which requested it, almost
certainly the SoCs would have to ignore it anyway, and do 2-wire
(non-DDR, serial) SPI anyway... or look at doing 4-bit bit-banging at
50-100mhz. which would be quite CPU-intensive.

i sort-of added it to EOMA68 for the hell of it, because the wires
were there. but for EOMA50 there's less pins so...

l.

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Christopher Havel
2017-05-20 22:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Sorry... DDR = RAM in my head. I *am* a computer nerd!

EINTs sound best, then.

OT: why no RAM slots in EOMA68? Routing too hard? No room? Both? Other,
please specify...?
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-20 23:25:01 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:40 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Sorry... DDR = RAM in my head. I *am* a computer nerd!
:)
Post by Christopher Havel
EINTs sound best, then.
don't need an extra UART, SPI's already there, I2C's already there,
how about another I2C bus? 1 PWM's already there...

yeh i'm sorta-settling on 2x EINTs...

*mulling*....
Post by Christopher Havel
OT: why no RAM slots in EOMA68? Routing too hard? No room? Both? Other,
please specify...?
what's the practicality of either:

(a) fitting a 70x40x6mm SO-DIMM onto a 78.1x43x5mm PCB?

(b) including 90+ pins for DDR3 onto a 68-pin connector?

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Christopher Havel
2017-05-20 23:32:21 UTC
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MicroDIMMs. <http://us.apacer.com/products/INDUSTRIAL-Micro-DIMM-DDR3-1333/>
Requires those awful, awful Hirose connectors, though... and they're not
widely available (by which I mean "sold on eBay").

Or a proprietary (by which I mean "part of the standard but not used
anywhere else") module setup, with the same drawbacks...

I was really thinking it would only fit the Type III cards anyways. With
the Type IIs, it sounds like you could 'cheat' by having a sheet of plastic
over a shell cutout... but those size requirements are a bit, well, oy.
You've got a point there. I didn't realize the outlines were that close.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-20 23:48:07 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Christopher Havel
MicroDIMMs. Requires those awful, awful Hirose connectors, though... and
they're not widely available (by which I mean "sold on eBay").
hmmm.... type III cards maaaybeee... 's'gonna be ridiculously tight
though. and expensive.

l.

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Christopher Havel
2017-05-20 23:51:00 UTC
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Sorry 'bout that.

...and for derailing another topic. We all have our talents, I suppose :P
zap
2017-05-21 00:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
My vote is for them to be SPI lines.
That means more/faster RAM, right?
RAM... where did you get that idea from... *thinks*... DDR (double
data rate), you might have confused that with the JEDEC RAM standards
named "DDR1,2,3,4"
so no it does not mean more/faster RAM.
SPI's 4-data-lines mode (which happens also to have optional
double-data-rate as part of the extension to SPI *on* those 4 data
lines) is an unusual rarely-used mode of SPI which isn't very often
supported on SoCs.
so if there was an EOMA50 housing which requested it, almost
certainly the SoCs would have to ignore it anyway, and do 2-wire
(non-DDR, serial) SPI anyway... or look at doing 4-bit bit-banging at
50-100mhz. which would be quite CPU-intensive.
what is eoma50 out of curiosity?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i sort-of added it to EOMA68 for the hell of it, because the wires
were there. but for EOMA50 there's less pins so...
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-21 00:59:05 UTC
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zap please remember to cut unnecessary context, thanks.
Post by zap
what is eoma50 out of curiosity?
ok so i have cut unnecessary context on your behalf, after searching
quite hard to find this one single quetsion in amongst the unnecessary
context.

answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the
answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread.

l.

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zap
2017-05-21 14:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
zap please remember to cut unnecessary context, thanks.
Post by zap
what is eoma50 out of curiosity?
ok so i have cut unnecessary context on your behalf, after searching
quite hard to find this one single quetsion in amongst the unnecessary
context.
answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the
answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread.
I checked my messages and couldn't find the original thread, unless it
is a router....

but if you would like I will not ask anymore.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-21 19:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by zap
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by zap
what is eoma50 out of curiosity?
answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the
answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread.
I checked my messages and couldn't find the original thread,
i did not say "the original thread" i said "the beginning of *this*
thread". how is the word "this" interpreted as "prior to this"?
Post by zap
unless it
is a router....
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/013828.html

so in that message, which is the *beginning of the thread not a prior
message which could be considered to be the origin of this thread*,
right at the very top is the link to the EOMA50 standards page:

http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/CompactFlash#Table_of_EOMA-CF_pinouts

l.

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