Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] Crowsupply update
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-08 08:29:59 UTC
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https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/eoma68-a20-2-7-5-gerbers-off-to-factory-thank-you-to-everyone-for-the-sponsorship

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 08:31:04 UTC
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oh that was quick, mike :)
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Post by m***@gmail.com
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/eoma68-a20-2-7-5-gerbers-off-to-factory-thank-you-to-everyone-for-the-sponsorship
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Hrvoje Lasic
2018-01-08 09:08:08 UTC
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does it make sense before mass produce, make i.e 5 pcs and test?

I understand PCB have been tested already, there is Chinese NT coming and
most certainly all is ok but still!
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
oh that was quick, mike :)
---
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Post by m***@gmail.com
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/
eoma68-a20-2-7-5-gerbers-off-to-factory-thank-you-to-
everyone-for-the-sponsorship
Post by m***@gmail.com
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 09:15:34 UTC
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Post by Hrvoje Lasic
does it make sense before mass produce, make i.e 5 pcs and test?
question. would it be better to make 1000, only to discover that
there's a fatal undetected design flaw?
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
I understand PCB have been tested already,
2.7.4 - which is COMPLETELY different layout from 2.7.5 - has been tested.

2.7.5 has not.

even one track wrong - especially if it is in the middle layers - can
result in a fatal error. that's ONE change!!

on the original DS113 board from 4(!) years ago, the person doing the
layout FAILED to run DRC before sending it to production. he had laid
a track that crossed over a pad. it was a pretty damn obvious
mistake.

we paid USD 10,000 to that team.

l.

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Hrvoje Lasic
2018-01-08 09:32:39 UTC
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agree on your points.

did you ever think about in investing in small PNP machine (or just small
oven plus some hand tools), like being able to produce small batch in house
and test it qucikly?

do you have any idea how reliable www.openpnp.org project is currently, for
example to meet your specs on board with soem available hardware?
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
does it make sense before mass produce, make i.e 5 pcs and test?
question. would it be better to make 1000, only to discover that
there's a fatal undetected design flaw?
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
I understand PCB have been tested already,
2.7.4 - which is COMPLETELY different layout from 2.7.5 - has been tested.
2.7.5 has not.
even one track wrong - especially if it is in the middle layers - can
result in a fatal error. that's ONE change!!
on the original DS113 board from 4(!) years ago, the person doing the
layout FAILED to run DRC before sending it to production. he had laid
a track that crossed over a pad. it was a pretty damn obvious
mistake.
we paid USD 10,000 to that team.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 10:06:18 UTC
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Post by Hrvoje Lasic
agree on your points.
did you ever think about in investing in small PNP machine (or just small
oven plus some hand tools), like being able to produce small batch in house
and test it qucikly?
yehyeh, i did - at one point. although mike only charges abouuut...
USD $300-400 for assembly. plus... i need to have a stable base
otherwise i am disassembling equipment and shipping it overseas.

last year i borrowed someone's equipment, i managed to do two of the
RK3288 boards. RAM ICs $12 each (QTY 4 so that's... $48 in RAM
ICs...), 650-pin 0.5mm pitch BGA processor $12.... you get that wrong
it's f*****g expensive.

by contrast whomever mike uses, apart from not filling in the huge
3mm hole under the AXP209 (i've now changed that to a hatch-pattern of
about 15 small vias), i haven't actually had a board failure except
where the USB-OTG and Micro-HDMI connectors had to be hand-soldered.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
do you have any idea how reliable www.openpnp.org project is currently, for
example to meet your specs on board with soem available hardware?
i did investigate openpnp - the critical thing if you are going to
make one of those is, the rod across to the other side to keep the 2
belts in sync is **NOT** optional. the distance (span) is too great
(600mm) for a single belt to reliablly keep the head position (H
style) steady by driving only ONE side of the horizontal part of the
"H". you MUST put the rod across so that the motor drives BOTH sides
of the horizontal cross bar EQUALLY.

here's the thing: if i was intending to manufacture boards "from
home", no problem. set up a nice business, stay in one plaaaace,
become a home-grown electronics factory, maybe in 10 years have a nice
retirement fund. it's a nice thought, isn't it? :) but i'm not
going there... that's not my life's purpose.

l.

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Hrvoje Lasic
2018-01-08 10:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
agree on your points.
did you ever think about in investing in small PNP machine (or just small
oven plus some hand tools), like being able to produce small batch in
house
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
and test it qucikly?
yehyeh, i did - at one point. although mike only charges abouuut...
USD $300-400 for assembly. plus... i need to have a stable base
otherwise i am disassembling equipment and shipping it overseas.
last year i borrowed someone's equipment, i managed to do two of the
RK3288 boards. RAM ICs $12 each (QTY 4 so that's... $48 in RAM
ICs...), 650-pin 0.5mm pitch BGA processor $12.... you get that wrong
it's f*****g expensive.
by contrast whomever mike uses, apart from not filling in the huge
3mm hole under the AXP209 (i've now changed that to a hatch-pattern of
about 15 small vias), i haven't actually had a board failure except
where the USB-OTG and Micro-HDMI connectors had to be hand-soldered.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
do you have any idea how reliable www.openpnp.org project is currently,
for
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
example to meet your specs on board with soem available hardware?
i did investigate openpnp - the critical thing if you are going to
make one of those is, the rod across to the other side to keep the 2
belts in sync is **NOT** optional. the distance (span) is too great
(600mm) for a single belt to reliablly keep the head position (H
style) steady by driving only ONE side of the horizontal part of the
"H". you MUST put the rod across so that the motor drives BOTH sides
of the horizontal cross bar EQUALLY.
here's the thing: if i was intending to manufacture boards "from
home", no problem. set up a nice business, stay in one plaaaace,
become a home-grown electronics factory, maybe in 10 years have a nice
retirement fund. it's a nice thought, isn't it? :) but i'm not
going there... that's not my life's purpose.
l.
Agree, but I am more thinking in getting through lets say between 10 and
couple of hundred board production. If you have 1000 pcs and stable pcb
most likely you will order that in China.

But that point that really kicks from zero to 1000 is critical as well as
fast prototyping.

But from perspective of your current project maybe not an issue as you need
to produce it in qty, also later hopefully 1000 pcs may be not issue.

But if you are small, starting business producing 100 pcs in house looks
like good option.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 11:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
But if you are small, starting business producing 100 pcs in house looks
like good option.
yehyeh absolutely. i am however extremely lucky with mike, he will
tolerate 100 pcs orders.

l.

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Neil Jansen
2018-01-08 14:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
did you ever think about in investing in small PNP machine (or just small
oven plus some hand tools), like being able to produce small batch in house
and test it qucikly?
No, this would be a horrible idea, I speak from experience here. If the
end-product had a few parts (Arduino-ish, BOM < 30 parts), if the smallest
passives were 0603's and if the smallest IC's were SSOP's, then yea it
MIGHT be doable. But the EOMA68 board has BGA's and (I'm guessing) 0402's
and likely some 0201's? The yield rate in a DIY situation would be
prohibitive. It is actually cheaper to pay the labor rates and NRE's to a
professional that has a process that's dialed in, and a line of machines
that aren't toys.
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
do you have any idea how reliable www.openpnp.org project is currently, for
example to meet your specs on board with soem available hardware?
I know the author of that program personally, I hired him and paid him to
work on that program for a few months as we tried to make a small desktop
machine that could do solder paste application and reflow in addition to
pick and place.

OpenPnP works, but that's not the issue. Stencil printing issues and
reflow issues would still make the yield horrible. Cheap manual stencil
printers lead to issues like tombstoning. Cheap reflows don't get the heat
even, which means that certain parts of the board don't get fully
soldered. There's a reason that the professional machines are several
meters long with various temperature zones and there's a reason that they
take a bit of effort to setup correctly. Even if he got some surplus
machinery and an area to set it up (including ducting for the exhaust and
three-phase AC hookup), there's still the issue of nailing down the actual
process, there's just so much to go wrong and that's why so many companies
leave that sort of stuff to other companies that are better situated to
deal with those kind of problems.

It's not exactly easy for me to say this either, because my dream was to
make a machine for projects like EOMA68; to make the development cycle
cheaper and quicker. I failed in that regard, and honestly nobody out
there has really nailed it to the point where you could start churning out
single board computers with BGA's an tiny parts and get close to 100%
yields, in a DIY setup. It's sad but that's the reality that we live in.


For the record, while I vehemently disagree with LKCL on other matters like
3D printing and funding via bitcoin mining, I do completely agree with his
decision to get a few boards produced and tested before doing a complete
run. Even with all the review, there are still plenty of possibilities for
show-stoppers.

The only suggestion that I would make -- and it's a big one -- is to send
Mike (at the factory) a full test rig that is capable of verifying that an
EOMA68 card works properly. This is an essential step of every production
run, and I'm honestly surprised that in the update LKCL is planning on
doing that himself. which pushes the schedule out to the right by another 3
days. This test rig would merely be a little board that the card plugs
into, with HDMI monitor, keyboard, and some testing software to test the
memory (Memtest86+), hard drive, peripherals, etc. Once production is
going, the factory will need to be testing them anyway before they leave,
this would be a good opportunity to test them, yet I saw nothing about that
in any of the updates or email traffic. Even if this is something that
LKCL personally does not have time to work on, surely someone in the forum
could take on this task. So how were you planning on approaching the
factory testing? If you've got it all figured out, then why isn't it going
to be used for the next immediate run? And if you've not had time to get
to it at all yet, why not let someone on the mailing list work on it? I
can certainly give a lot of advice in this department. Hardware and
software testing of embedded modules is not only what I do at my day job, I
had a lot of experience while living in Shenzhen in how to make test
fixtures for embedded products. I've got advice on how to make them
bilingual so that they can actually be used in the factory by non-English
speaking test technicians, and lots of other advice. Just let me know.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 14:57:26 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
did you ever think about in investing in small PNP machine (or just small
oven plus some hand tools), like being able to produce small batch in house
and test it qucikly?
No, this would be a horrible idea, I speak from experience here. If the
end-product had a few parts (Arduino-ish, BOM < 30 parts), if the smallest
passives were 0603's and if the smallest IC's were SSOP's, then yea it
MIGHT be doable. But the EOMA68 board has BGA's and (I'm guessing) 0402's
and likely some 0201's?
deliberately no 0201s. you can't pick them up.
Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Hrvoje Lasic
do you have any idea how reliable www.openpnp.org project is currently, for
example to meet your specs on board with soem available hardware?
I know the author of that program personally, I hired him and paid him to
work on that program for a few months as we tried to make a small desktop
machine that could do solder paste application and reflow in addition to
pick and place.
cool!
Post by Neil Jansen
It's not exactly easy for me to say this either, because my dream was to
make a machine for projects like EOMA68; to make the development cycle
cheaper and quicker. I failed in that regard, and honestly nobody out
there has really nailed it to the point where you could start churning out
single board computers with BGA's an tiny parts and get close to 100%
yields, in a DIY setup. It's sad but that's the reality that we live in.
the whole point of doing the computer cards is that the base units -
the Housings - *can* be done with 0603 and 0805 components, on 2 layer
PCBs.
Post by Neil Jansen
For the record, while I vehemently disagree with LKCL on other matters like
3D printing and funding via bitcoin mining,
well, if you have any ideas which stand a chance of fulfilling the
goals that have been set i'd like to hear them. i didn't hear from
anyone when i asked, several times, for help with sponsorship,
contracts or anything else, so i had to make my own decisions.
urgently.

if people don't like that, tough: they should have responded sooner.
i can't wait for people: i have to actually make *decisions*.
Post by Neil Jansen
I do completely agree with his
decision to get a few boards produced and tested before doing a complete
run. Even with all the review, there are still plenty of possibilities for
show-stoppers.
the 2.7.4 board is the fallback. it'll be... without an HDMI
interface. that's just the way it'll be.
Post by Neil Jansen
The only suggestion that I would make -- and it's a big one -- is to send
Mike (at the factory) a full test rig that is capable of verifying that an
EOMA68 card works properly.
yehyeh. i'll have to go over to shenzhen to get one set up, and work
with his engineers to make it really, _really_ easy to fit the Cards -
and Micro-Desktops - into the rig. fixed (locked-down) cables, rails
/ slides to put the PCBs in so that the connectors go straight in,
that sort of thing.

the less time the better.
Post by Neil Jansen
This is an essential step of every production
run, and I'm honestly surprised that in the update LKCL is planning on
doing that himself. which pushes the schedule out to the right by another 3
days. This test rig would merely be a little board that the card plugs
into, with HDMI monitor, keyboard, and some testing software to test the
memory (Memtest86+), hard drive, peripherals, etc. Once production is
going, the factory will need to be testing them anyway before they leave,
this would be a good opportunity to test them, yet I saw nothing about that
in any of the updates or email traffic.
i've mentioned it... half a dozen times over the past... 18-24
months. in several updates and several times on the mailing list.
Post by Neil Jansen
Even if this is something that
LKCL personally does not have time to work on, surely someone in the forum
could take on this task.
that would be really handy.
Post by Neil Jansen
So how were you planning on approaching the
factory testing? If you've got it all figured out, then why isn't it going
to be used for the next immediate run?
because i do the testing here, one at a time, here. take micro-sd
card, take the PCMCIA header i've wired a 5V USB connector to and a
UART, plug it in and go. otherwise i have to pay mike or one of
mike's engineers to do it.
Post by Neil Jansen
And if you've not had time to get
to it at all yet, why not let someone on the mailing list work on it?
nobody's offered!
Post by Neil Jansen
I can certainly give a lot of advice in this department. Hardware and
software testing of embedded modules is not only what I do at my day job, I
had a lot of experience while living in Shenzhen in how to make test
fixtures for embedded products. I've got advice on how to make them
bilingual so that they can actually be used in the factory by non-English
speaking test technicians, and lots of other advice. Just let me know.
coool.

well, the guy who mike employs, he's extremely good at making
mechanical rigs and stamps and so on. he can easily put together
something that ensures that the workers don't damage the boards during
testing as the PCB will go into the rig "in only one physical way and
with one physical move".

software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.

going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.

l.

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Neil Jansen
2018-01-08 15:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the whole point of doing the computer cards is that the base units -
the Housings - *can* be done with 0603 and 0805 components, on 2 layer
PCBs.
Does the current housing design break EVERYTHING out? Or only the more
important signals?

if people don't like that, tough: they should have responded sooner.
I've got zero skin in the game, I'm not a backer of your campaign. So yea,
don't kill yourself over my opinion of how you're managing this. The
intention of saying that wasn't to derail the thread into bickering and
arguing, but just to point out that I call 'em like I see 'em. While I
think you're wrong on many important points, I'll gladly point out when
you're doing something right but others are questioning you. That's OK.
Running a business is subjective, and you can't make everyone happy. As
long as the discussion is civil and open, it's all good.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
yehyeh. i'll have to go over to shenzhen to get one set up, and work
with his engineers to make it really, _really_ easy to fit the Cards -
and Micro-Desktops - into the rig. fixed (locked-down) cables, rails
/ slides to put the PCBs in so that the connectors go straight in,
that sort of thing.
If you're in Shenzhen, there are a few of the markets that have booths
where they'll make you an entire mechanical test rig, with pogo pins,
DESTACO clamps, LCD screens, buttons, locks, slides, ports, you name it...
Just give them a drawing (CAD or otherwise) and come back in a few days.
The prices are unbelievably cheap. Compared to my hourly rate, they're
basically free.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
nobody's offered!
Why not ask the community directly, via the mailing list, and/or the next
update? If you say that it's really important and that your time is better
spent doing other important facets of the project, that might be what it
takes for someone to step forward.

I do feel sympathy because back when I ran an open-source hardware company
with a mailing list, and I never got the community support that I needed,
unless I begged and pleaded. Everyone was happy to sit around and fire off
emails and replies about how I was doing everything wrong, but nobody
wanted to do any actual work. I think the word in the USA is 'peanut
gallery'. I couldn't trust them any farther than I could throw them, when
it came to doing real work. In the open-source hardware world, everyone
gets entitled and wants you to give, give, give, and nobody really stops
and thinks about what they can give back (other than their opinions and
criticisms of course). So yea. It's an expectation management problem for
sure. But still it's worth asking. You never know. We had a few guys
really step up and deliver.. it was like 0.5% of our list size but hey I'll
take what I can get.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
well, the guy who mike employs, he's extremely good at making
mechanical rigs and stamps and so on. he can easily put together
something that ensures that the workers don't damage the boards during
testing as the PCB will go into the rig "in only one physical way and
with one physical move".
software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
Sounds like you need a test plan document, in the form of a wiki page or
HTML page on your website that documents exactly what you need to test, and
how you plan to test it. While I'm way too busy with back-taxes and
overtime at work to actually write the code at the moment, I could
certainly help put together a test plan document. That's well within my
skill set for sure. If you'd like we could start a new thread to discuss.
If I did find some time to write a bit of code, it would be Python because
that's what I know best, and that might actually work well for a top-level
testing interface, because it supports Unicode, and the Qt GUI bindings
(PyQt5) would allow switchable translations. As long as the low-level
testing code could be called from commandline using existing tools, then
the Python environment is really just a test executive that calls the
actual test code. Using the built-in Python unittesting framework would a
good way to go here. It doesn't produce a test report document at the end,
but it will tell you whether everything passed or failed. As far as testing
I2C, UART, GPIO, that's all very very doable! Wraparound tests and
fixtures and a bit of code is all you need there. But first let's get a
plan together! Shall I start a new thread?
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 15:47:01 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the whole point of doing the computer cards is that the base units -
the Housings - *can* be done with 0603 and 0805 components, on 2 layer
PCBs.
Does the current housing design break EVERYTHING out?
the microdesktop 1.7 brings everything out. as it's only 68 pins, 24
of which are RGB/TTL, 4 are power, 8 are unused USB3, 7 are for
micro-sd and 4 are for USB2, there's actually not a lot left.
Post by Neil Jansen
Running a business is subjective,
this isn't a business. even the EOMA68 Certification process i will
put under a CIC (which is... _sort-of_ a "business" except not
really).

under the rules of Certification Marks i'm *not allowed* to quotes
profit quotes or do anything that could be considered to be quotes
competing quotes with quotes businesses quotes. several people have
actually already asked me, "um if i make a housing what's to stop you
from putting me out of business by making it yourself" and it's real
simple: Certification *inherently* prohibits that.
Post by Neil Jansen
and you can't make everyone happy. As
long as the discussion is civil and open, it's all good.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
yehyeh. i'll have to go over to shenzhen to get one set up, and work
with his engineers to make it really, _really_ easy to fit the Cards -
and Micro-Desktops - into the rig. fixed (locked-down) cables, rails
/ slides to put the PCBs in so that the connectors go straight in,
that sort of thing.
If you're in Shenzhen, there are a few of the markets that have booths
where they'll make you an entire mechanical test rig, with pogo pins,
DESTACO clamps, LCD screens, buttons, locks, slides, ports, you name it...
Just give them a drawing (CAD or otherwise) and come back in a few days.
The prices are unbelievably cheap. Compared to my hourly rate, they're
basically free.
:)

that's the sort of thing that mike's in-house engineer does.
Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
nobody's offered!
Why not ask the community directly, via the mailing list, and/or the next
update?
i have!! about six times!
Post by Neil Jansen
If you say that it's really important and that your time is better
spent doing other important facets of the project, that might be what it
takes for someone to step forward.
I do feel sympathy because back when I ran an open-source hardware company
with a mailing list, and I never got the community support that I needed,
unless I begged and pleaded. Everyone was happy to sit around and fire off
emails and replies about how I was doing everything wrong, but nobody
wanted to do any actual work.
well, that can begin to change when there's hardware in peoples' hands.
Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
well, the guy who mike employs, he's extremely good at making
mechanical rigs and stamps and so on. he can easily put together
something that ensures that the workers don't damage the boards during
testing as the PCB will go into the rig "in only one physical way and
with one physical move".
software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
Sounds like you need a test plan document, in the form of a wiki page or
HTML page on your website that documents exactly what you need to test, and
how you plan to test it. While I'm way too busy with back-taxes and
overtime at work to actually write the code at the moment, I could
certainly help put together a test plan document.
that would be awesome.
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/testing/ would be a good start.
Post by Neil Jansen
That's well within my
skill set for sure. If you'd like we could start a new thread to discuss.
If I did find some time to write a bit of code, it would be Python because
that's what I know best, and that might actually work well for a top-level
testing interface, because it supports Unicode, and the Qt GUI bindings
(PyQt5) would allow switchable translations. As long as the low-level
testing code could be called from commandline using existing tools, then
the Python environment is really just a test executive that calls the
actual test code. Using the built-in Python unittesting framework would a
good way to go here. It doesn't produce a test report document at the end,
but it will tell you whether everything passed or failed. As far as testing
I2C, UART, GPIO, that's all very very doable! Wraparound tests and
fixtures and a bit of code is all you need there. But first let's get a
plan together! Shall I start a new thread?
sure. great idea.

l.

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Neil Jansen
2018-01-08 16:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
the microdesktop 1.7 brings everything out. as it's only 68 pins, 24
of which are RGB/TTL, 4 are power, 8 are unused USB3, 7 are for
micro-sd and 4 are for USB2, there's actually not a lot left.
that's the sort of thing that mike's in-house engineer does.
OK then, (A) is there a timetable for when he plans on having such a
fixture ready? and (B) Do you have drawings for the fixture that you intend
to give to him? Or do you need help with the design? Yes, in this case,
I'm offering mechanical fixture design help if needed.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i have!! about six times!
I've been on the mailing list since May of 2017 and I don't recall seeing
any direct calls for help in that department. Not saying that you haven't,
but I'm just saying that although I've read all the posts and all of the
updates since that date, I've not seen a call for help in that area,
because if I did, I probably would have stepped up and volunteered. New
people join all the time, and even more people lurk, so consider asking
again.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
well, that can begin to change when there's hardware in peoples' hands.
Very, very true.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
that would be awesome.
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/testing/ would be a good start.
That's a great start.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
[...] Shall I start a new thread?
sure. great idea.
Will start one now.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 19:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Jansen
OK then, (A) is there a timetable for when he plans on having such a
fixture ready?
he isn't planning, i am. any time in the next... 4 months is fine.
nothing could ever really be "planned" because there was no point
[with a previously unknown and unknowable time on the critical path].
Post by Neil Jansen
and (B) Do you have drawings for the fixture that you intend
to give to him?
no. i met mike a year ago in shenzhen and discussed the need for a
test rig, not the actual details *of* a test rig.
Post by Neil Jansen
Or do you need help with the design? Yes, in this case,
I'm offering mechanical fixture design help if needed.
hmm.... i tell you what [and importantly, why] - i feel it would be
best to let mike's guy come up with something based on a "requirements
specification". that way he feels "needed and trusted" if you know
what i mean.

if he ballses it up on the other hand... :)
Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i have!! about six times!
I've been on the mailing list since May of 2017 and I don't recall seeing
any direct calls for help in that department.
the list's being going since... 2011.
Post by Neil Jansen
Not saying that you haven't,
but I'm just saying that although I've read all the posts and all of the
updates since that date, I've not seen a call for help in that area,
because if I did, I probably would have stepped up and volunteered. New
people join all the time, and even more people lurk, so consider asking
again.
i forgot about that. whoops :)

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-09 18:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Neil Jansen
Does the current housing design break EVERYTHING out?
the microdesktop 1.7 brings everything out. as it's only 68 pins, 24
of which are RGB/TTL, 4 are power, 8 are unused USB3, 7 are for
micro-sd and 4 are for USB2, there's actually not a lot left.
68 - (24 + 4 + 8 + 7 + 4) = 68 - 47 = 21
What are the remaining 21 pins?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-09 18:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Wilbur
68 - (24 + 4 + 8 + 7 + 4) = 68 - 47 = 21
What are the remaining 21 pins?
https://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/EOMA68/Hardware#Pinouts_.28version_1.0.29

http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/microdesktop/microdesktop_v1_7.pdf

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-08 21:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Neil Jansen
I do completely agree with his
decision to get a few boards produced and tested before doing a complete
run. Even with all the review, there are still plenty of possibilities for
show-stoppers.
the 2.7.4 board is the fallback. it'll be... without an HDMI
interface. that's just the way it'll be.
One downside of the 2.7.4 board at this point is the changes in capacitor pricing that have been ameliorated only on version 2.7.5. Here's hoping the 2.7.5 board works!

[…]
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
I'd be happy to write some test software for I2C, UART, GPIO, etc. I've worked on drivers for those interfaces on embedded machines in the past. I also have experience creating and implementing software and hardware test designs. One example, I modified my employer's PCI VGA BIOS to test the card at boot which significantly streamlined testing of our cards. Another example, in order to test a design I created I2C driver and test code to demonstrate feasibility on a prototype and then incorporated it into production code in the BIOS and driver.

Happy to collaborate on board bring up as well. I've worked on bringing up in-house boards for two employers: PCI graphics cards (for which we used oscilloscope and completed someone else's programmable logic design), embedded computers in different modules of high-speed wireless communications links (tools used: spectrum analyzer, oscilloscope, logic analyzer, PCI bus analyzer, MPEG protocol analysis software, processor In-Circuit Emulator, serial terminal).

If you've got that covered, I'm happy playing the role of the ally you can describe the problem to and who, through listening to your description, helps you see the solution!

Sincerely,
Richard
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-08 22:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Wilbur
One downside of the 2.7.4 board at this point is the changes in capacitor pricing that have been ameliorated only on version 2.7.5. Here's hoping the 2.7.5 board works!
darn yeah i'd forgotten about the implications of the price-hike. whoops.
Post by Richard Wilbur
[…]
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
I'd be happy to write some test software for I2C, UART, GPIO, etc.
I've worked on drivers for those interfaces on embedded machines in the past.
I also have experience creating and implementing software and hardware test
designs. One example, I modified my employer's PCI VGA BIOS to test the card
at boot which significantly streamlined testing of our cards. Another example,
in order to test a design I created I2C driver and test code to demonstrate feasibility
on a prototype and then incorporated it into production code in the BIOS and driver.
nice! well, this would be a lot simple: scan the I2C bus (lmsensors
debian package), see if a peripheral at address 0x51 comes up, if it
does _great_. it's a few lines of shell script.

UART: if i add a USB-to-UART adapter onto a "test" microdesktop unit,
if there's output on the console and it's not garbage, that's good
enough.

the GPIO... yes, that's where some coding comes in. there's actually
only a few pins spare, they're all on the 14-pin header of the
microdesktop board. except for two which are intended for bit-banging
a separate I2C driver for VGA "EDID" detection....
Post by Richard Wilbur
Happy to collaborate on board bring up as well.
great.
Post by Richard Wilbur
PCI graphics cards (for which we used oscilloscope and completed someone
else's programmable logic design), embedded computers in different modules
of high-speed wireless communications links (tools used: spectrum analyzer,
oscilloscope, logic analyzer, PCI bus analyzer, MPEG protocol analysis
software, processor In-Circuit Emulator, serial terminal).
ooo fuuun :)

honestly the board's pretty "mature" and a lot simpler than that. no
PCI, no PCIe, it's all SD/MMC, UART, USB, I2C, SPI, RGB/TTL, that sort
of thing, where all of those have all worked in previous boards, no
reason why they shouldn't work in the 2.7.5 version (except i tidied
up the USB lines a bit... never keen on altering stuff that works...
ah well).

on the actual board itself, it's so tightly integrated (and also
quite simple) that it tends to be an all-or-nothing. does power
work, measure the voltages, yes no. ok does plugging in USB-OTG only
have it show up on "lsusb" yes no. yes ok great let's load the FEL,
does _that_ work, yes no, yes ok great, now does loading u-boot
directly into DDR3 RAM work, yes, no.

the FEL (u-boot-spl) loader has a nice debug feature of displaying a
few lines of early UART. so that's a really good way to tell if the
A20's alive.

from there i can compile u-boot to look for a particular micro-sd
card slot, which it will scan, and show debug messages "SD card
detected" and so on. i can do commands which list the partitions and
so on.

it's pretty straghtforward: anything not working shows up really
quickly and easily.
Post by Richard Wilbur
If you've got that covered, I'm happy playing the role of the ally
you can describe the problem to and who, through listening to
your description, helps you see the solution!
appreciated.

... y'know... when we get to the RISC-V 64-bit SoC then that's going
to be a lot trickier. aside from anything it will be necessary to do
the DDR3 layout from scratch. i can't stand doing DDR3 layouts,
they're... blegh :) get it wrong and yeah you reaaaly need a logic
analyzer...

oh. i have an RK3288 board that could use your help. i only got one
of the DDR3 lanes up and running.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-08 23:24:28 UTC
Permalink
It all sounds like fun! What can I help with first?


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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-09 00:23:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
It all sounds like fun! What can I help with first?
well... perhaps... something simple like.. a simple program that tests
GPIO, assuming that say 4 hard-wires are connected between 8 GPIOs in
pairs, turning one into an input and the other an output, then setting
0 and 1 and seeing if it's read correctly... then inverting each pair
(out becomes in, in becomes out) and re-running the test.

something in either c or python that uses the sunxi-3.4 gpio driver:
https://github.com/linux-sunxi/linux-sunxi/blob/stage/sunxi-3.4/drivers/gpio/gpio-sunxi.c

that _should_ be exposed as /dev/gpio which should in turn appear in
either /sys or /proc... it should be a standard interface, with a
standard way to set which banks are activated... you might have to do
some digging.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-09 13:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
It all sounds like fun! What can I help with first?
well... perhaps... something simple like.. a simple program that tests
GPIO, assuming that say 4 hard-wires are connected between 8 GPIOs in
pairs, turning one into an input and the other an output, then setting
0 and 1 and seeing if it's read correctly... then inverting each pair
(out becomes in, in becomes out) and re-running the test.
I'd recommend resistors instead of wires. Something like 10KΩ because then if they are accidentally misconnected, Vcc(5V?) to ground would only amount to 0.5mA which is unlikely to stress anything unduly. What kind of logic are these GPIO pins? (CMOS, TTL, etc.)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
https://github.com/linux-sunxi/linux-sunxi/blob/stage/sunxi-3.4/drivers/gpio/gpio-sunxi.c
that _should_ be exposed as /dev/gpio which should in turn appear in
either /sys or /proc... it should be a standard interface, with a
standard way to set which banks are activated... you might have to do
some digging.
So there are 4 pairs or 8 GPIO lines to test? (I thought we had 14 lines dedicated to GPIO and two more that were going to be used as I2C for VGA? Are only 8 easy to test?) I'll assume I either get the connected pairs via an environment variable, the command line, or a file (filename passed on command line).
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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-12 23:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Last time I asked these questions I succeeded in hiding them in the middle of a bunch of other text.
Post by Richard Wilbur
What kind of logic are these GPIO pins? (CMOS, TTL, etc.)
The type of logic determines the input and output voltage and current source and sink characteristics (both capabilities and expectations). Do you have the Allwinner documentation for the A20--specifically for the GPIO pins?
Post by Richard Wilbur
So there are 4 pairs or 8 GPIO lines to test? (I thought we had more lines dedicated to GPIO and two more that were going to be used as I2C for VGA? Are only 8 easy to test?)
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-13 01:15:35 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 11:37 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
Last time I asked these questions I succeeded in hiding them in the middle of a bunch of other text.
Post by Richard Wilbur
What kind of logic are these GPIO pins? (CMOS, TTL, etc.)
The type of logic determines the input and output voltage and current
source and sink characteristics (both capabilities and expectations).
Do you have the Allwinner documentation for the A20--specifically for
the GPIO pins?
ok google "allwinner a20 datasheet" or better "allwinner a20
reference manual" you'll find it.
Post by Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
So there are 4 pairs or 8 GPIO lines to test? (I thought we
had more lines dedicated to GPIO and two more that were
going to be used as I2C for VGA? Are only 8 easy to test?)
the choice - on the Microdesktop PCB - to arbitrarily utilise two of
the GPIO pins as bit-banged I2C - is entirely one that is legitimate
yet has absolutely nothing to do with the EOMA68 specification,
*other* than, "It Is Permitted" under the EOMA68 specification to make
such decisions.

the choice - on the Microdesktop PCB - to arbitrarily utilise those
two GPIO pins as bit-banged I2C - is done because the termination
impedance for VGA EDID is, according to the specification, somewhere
around 10 kOhms, whereas the normal I2C termination resistance is
usually somewhere around 2.2kOhms.

i felt therefore that it was important *not* to have the VGA I2C
lines connected to the EOMA68 I2C bus.

these decisions have *nothing to do with the EOMA68 specification*,
they are simply "permitted under the EOMA68 specification" if that
makes sense.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-13 22:05:48 UTC
Permalink
I am sorry if any of my comments came across with any flavour of criticism. I meant none towards anyone but myself.

Thank you for the pointer to the Allwinner A20 documentation. I didn't know how easily available it was.

I was just wondering whether there were more GPIO lines we could test (by hook or by crook). My goal is the best test coverage.

No complaints about the EOMA specification or your design decisions on the microdesktop case.


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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-13 22:11:17 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:05 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
I am sorry if any of my comments came across with any flavour of criticism. I meant none towards anyone but myself.
nono, sorry, richard, i was up very late. and am again today. kept
it very short.
Post by Richard Wilbur
Thank you for the pointer to the Allwinner A20 documentation. I didn't know how easily available it was.
it can be a pain to find if you don't know the keywords
Post by Richard Wilbur
I was just wondering whether there were more GPIO lines we could test (by hook or by crook). My goal is the best test coverage.
i also have to think how to minimise testing time, as it will be
chargeable by the minute. either that or i do it... get *everything*
shipped to my apartment.... oooo i always wanted an ultra-low-power
beowulf clusterrrr... ooooo :)
Post by Richard Wilbur
No complaints about the EOMA specification or your design decisions on the microdesktop case.
relief.


btw jonathon, please do keep the momentum going, it's important. damn
hard work, i've gone through several reviews like this, over the past
5 years, and four of them resulted in major changes. it's very *very*
late in the day now so it's necessary to be extra-extra careful.

l.

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Richard Wilbur
2018-01-14 07:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:05 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
I was just wondering whether there were more GPIO lines we could test (by hook or by crook). My goal is the best test coverage.
i also have to think how to minimise testing time, as it will be
chargeable by the minute. either that or i do it... get *everything*
shipped to my apartment.... oooo i always wanted an ultra-low-power
beowulf clusterrrr... ooooo :)
From what I've seen, I think we can automate a lot of this so it takes
a second or two per card. I expect our tall tentpole (the thing
that's holding everything up) will be booting the card. Do you know
how long it takes the bootloader to come up from power on? How long
does it take GNU/Linux to get to user login after that?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-14 10:04:07 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:05 PM, Richard Wilbur
Post by Richard Wilbur
I was just wondering whether there were more GPIO lines we could test (by hook or by crook). My goal is the best test coverage.
i also have to think how to minimise testing time, as it will be
chargeable by the minute. either that or i do it... get *everything*
shipped to my apartment.... oooo i always wanted an ultra-low-power
beowulf clusterrrr... ooooo :)
From what I've seen, I think we can automate a lot of this so it takes
a second or two per card.
it'll be a bit longer than that :)
Post by Richard Wilbur
I expect our tall tentpole (the thing
that's holding everything up) will be booting the card. Do you know
how long it takes the bootloader to come up from power on?
it's about 1-2 seconds :) there's a 3 second automated delay for
"user-input" which can be switched off.
Post by Richard Wilbur
How long
does it take GNU/Linux to get to user login after that?
initialisation of the linux kernel depends very much on which kernel
modules are compiled-in and which are modules, but let's say around
4-7 seconds. there is quite a lot of "delay" built-in, such as
waiting for sd-cards to initialise, or waiting for this to
initialise,waiting for that etc.

from /sbin/init to a full GUI is about another.... 10-15 seconds.

l.

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c***@sasktel.net
2018-01-29 03:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Richard Wilbur
One downside of the 2.7.4 board at this point is the changes in capacitor pricing that have been ameliorated only on version 2.7.5. Here's hoping the 2.7.5 board works!
darn yeah i'd forgotten about the implications of the price-hike. whoops.
So, if 2.7.5 is found to have a problem, then it might be cheaper to solve that, than to
"fall back" to 2.7.4?

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-29 03:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@sasktel.net
So, if 2.7.5 is found to have a problem, then it might be cheaper to
solve that, than to "fall back" to 2.7.4?
i finally managed to pin mike down for long enough to get some
estimates for the capacitors - we estimated it is around $2.50 where
it was around $0.50 last year. i previously thought it would be $5 to
$8.

l.

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Pičugins Arsenijs
2018-01-09 13:04:30 UTC
Permalink
 software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
 going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
Speaking about I2C, UART and GPIO testing - it sounds easy.
I don't yet know which defects you'd want to cover with tests
(mechanical, soldering, faulty parts, maybe all of them), but,
as far as my research goes, you can test both UART and GPIOs
with a loopback test, and I2C could be tested using a simple
device - such as an EEPROM.

Now, I don't have as much testing experience, but I've done a couple
of DIY jigs - not automated, but that's yet to come - and I've been
thinking about a way to make testing jigs. First thing is - it's best if
the test program runs on the computer card itself. I see that's
what you plan to do, and, if I'm not mistaken, cards are going to boot
from a MicroSD card anyway - which is what's needed.

Testing GPIOs can be done easily from software - connect GPIOs
in pairs using resistors (say, 470ohm, just in case one of GPIOs
is shorted to ground/VCC for some mechanical reason). Set first
GPIO as input, second as output, then toggle the second GPIO
and check that value that's read from the input is the same as
value that's on the output.

With more complicated interfaces, it depends. I2C should be
testable by using an I2C device - since you have an EEPROM
inside the card, it makes sense to first test if that's accessible,
then test another device that's located in the test header (say,
a GPIO expander or an ADC, you could use both of those for
testing, too.) You can test SPI in loopback mode by connecting
MISO and MOSI together, though you won't test SCK and CS
that way. UART should easily be testable with a loopback -
though I think you won't want to have the loopback hard-wired,
to make sure that U-Boot messages won't get into U-Boot input
and stop the boot process, or something of that kind =)

If you want to test USB, you don't even need to have engineers
mash on the keyboard, attach two USB devices with unique
IDs (say, CP2012 - you can program those through USB connection)
and make sure they're recognized - in case of CP2012, you can
make a loopback test of their UART, just to make sure data
passes through... Not sure how much sense it'll make, though =)

Now, speaking about SDIO and parallel video interfaces that
you have in EOMA68 pinouts, I have no idea how to test them
automatically =( But the test I listed cover most mechanical pins,
and half of the peripherals, which is already pretty good for
avoiding RMAs of cards with bad solder joints in the USB
or I2C lines. They're also cheap enough in terms of hardware&
software required.

So, the end result could be: a MicroSD card with a stripped down
image of something something Linux that boots as quickly as
possible (with cruft like networking disabled), shows the boot
log on HDMI monitor - then draws a table on the monitor (I
imagine it being a fullscreen application working with
framebuffer, to avoid having to wait for X to load). Cells of
that table would be filled with green or red, depending on
whether tests pass on fail - and an all-green monitor would
indicate all is well =) This should make for streamlined&quick
testing and avoid lots of manual work (excluding that, well,
you still have to plug the card into the testing jig and plug
the cables in).

Now, I don't have *that* much experience, I don't
know which failures you want to protect against,
but if I were to test these cards, this is what I'd do.

Cheers!
Arsenijs

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2018-01-09 13:41:57 UTC
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crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Pičugins Arsenijs
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
software-wise i need something that does nothing more complex than
mount stuff on a micro-sd card, show boot messages on both screens,
and maybe has 2 keyboards plugged in (one into each USB socket) so
that they can bash some keys and see that crud comes up on-screen for
each.
going beyond that... testing I2C, UART and the GPIO.... *sigh*...
that involves writing some software.
Speaking about I2C, UART and GPIO testing - it sounds easy.
I don't yet know which defects you'd want to cover with tests
(mechanical, soldering, faulty parts, maybe all of them), but,
as far as my research goes, you can test both UART and GPIOs
with a loopback test, and I2C could be tested using a simple
device - such as an EEPROM.
funny but there's an EEPROM on-board the Micro-desktop PCB... :)
Post by Pičugins Arsenijs
Now, I don't have as much testing experience, but I've done a couple
of DIY jigs - not automated, but that's yet to come - and I've been
thinking about a way to make testing jigs. First thing is - it's best if
the test program runs on the computer card itself. I see that's
what you plan to do, and, if I'm not mistaken, cards are going to boot
from a MicroSD card anyway - which is what's needed.
yyep. there's two.
Post by Pičugins Arsenijs
If you want to test USB, you don't even need to have engineers
mash on the keyboard, attach two USB devices with unique
IDs (say, CP2012 - you can program those through USB connection)
ha good idea.

could someone put these things into the testing page?

l.

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