Discussion:
[Arm-netbook] The dream of Ara
David Boddie
2017-01-12 11:47:31 UTC
Permalink
A bit off-topic, perhaps, but this article illustrates the difficulties that
large corporations have with long term visions, especially in cases where
sustainability has to compete with profitability:

http://venturebeat.com/2017/01/10/inside-project-ara-googles-revolutionary-
modular-phone/

Found via OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/29600/The_dream_of_Ara

I think the drive to focus on profits and what "consumers" supposedly want in
corporate environments tends to undermine projects like these, even when the
work is being done in part of an organisation that is supposed to be shielded
from commercial concerns. Because conventional wisdom suggests that the
public won't buy modular phones, no modular phones are made, even if there
might be a demand for them if they were made. Indeed, just the availability
of modular phones might drive demand for them.

This suggests a lack of imagination on the industry's part which I think is
shown by the example of a phone module given in the article: a tiny
"aquarium". Very interesting, but not really something that would sell the
practical benefits of modularity. Of course, you need examples of what the
system can do, but it's often the case that the most interesting ideas come
from third parties. Just getting the devices out there with open specs and
documentation would be enough to find the interesting use cases.

Anyway, this is only sort of relevant here, but I hope it was thought
provoking. ;-)

David

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-01-12 12:26:54 UTC
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Post by David Boddie
A bit off-topic, perhaps, but this article illustrates the difficulties that
large corporations have with long term visions, especially in cases where
http://venturebeat.com/2017/01/10/inside-project-ara-googles-revolutionary-
modular-phone/
Anyway, this is only sort of relevant here, but I hope it was thought
provoking. ;-)
no, always appreciated, david.

l.

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Allan Mwenda
2017-01-12 15:18:19 UTC
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With a little ingenuity you could probably make a EOMA50 phablet size smartphone
Post by David Boddie
A bit off-topic, perhaps, but this article illustrates the difficulties that
large corporations have with long term visions, especially in cases where
http://venturebeat.com/2017/01/10/inside-project-ara-googles-revolutionary-
modular-phone/
Found via OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/29600/The_dream_of_Ara
I think the drive to focus on profits and what "consumers" supposedly want in
corporate environments tends to undermine projects like these, even when the
work is being done in part of an organisation that is supposed to be shielded
from commercial concerns. Because conventional wisdom suggests that the
public won't buy modular phones, no modular phones are made, even if there
might be a demand for them if they were made. Indeed, just the
availability
of modular phones might drive demand for them.
This suggests a lack of imagination on the industry's part which I think is
shown by the example of a phone module given in the article: a tiny
"aquarium". Very interesting, but not really something that would sell the
practical benefits of modularity. Of course, you need examples of what the
system can do, but it's often the case that the most interesting ideas come
from third parties. Just getting the devices out there with open specs and
documentation would be enough to find the interesting use cases.
Anyway, this is only sort of relevant here, but I hope it was thought
provoking. ;-)
David
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Wolfgang Romey
2017-01-12 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone. I use it with the FairPhone Open Os, which is Google free. Of
course I could root it without problems. I know (luke) that it is not real
free hardware and comes with blobs. But I think, it is the most fair and free
Smartphone, which one can get at the moment.

For me it makes sense to support it and demand from Fairphone to make it more
fair and more free.

Wolfgang



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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-01-13 03:56:52 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I use it with the FairPhone Open Os, which is Google free. Of
course I could root it without problems. I know (luke) that it is not real
free hardware and comes with blobs.
you mean, "it comes with software from one of THE most unethical
companies in the world that is undergoing court cases for
anti-competitive practices, where we KNOW that they just roll over and
give direct access, through their OS, *AT RUNTIME*, to allow arbitrary
code-execution OVER THE AIR without your knowledge, EVEN IF THE DEVICE
IS POWERED DOWN?"

l.

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m***@gmail.com
2017-01-13 07:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a
modular
Post by Wolfgang Romey
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
If they're intentions were honest it's not a lie. It's just being naive.

But all most parts are, user, replaceable. Which indeed does not make it
modular, but serviceable.

If there is a true lie, I'd like to hear about it.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I use it with the FairPhone Open Os, which is Google free. Of
course I could root it without problems. I know (luke) that it is not
real
Post by Wolfgang Romey
free hardware and comes with blobs.
you mean, "it comes with software from one of THE most unethical
companies in the world that is undergoing court cases for
anti-competitive practices
That's true for most companies. BTW which company are we talking about.
Farphone1: Mediatek SoC
Faiphone2: Quallcomm snapdragon SoC

, where we KNOW that they just roll over and
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
give direct access, through their OS, *AT RUNTIME*, to allow arbitrary
code-execution OVER THE AIR without your knowledge, EVEN IF THE DEVICE
IS POWERED DOWN?"
Which is true for every GSM modem and SIM card, mandated by the GSM network
operators and probably, directly or indirectly, some government agency's.

The biggest issue is that they've tied the modem and SIM directly to the
rest of the system. It's a cheap decision. Which most manufactures have
done unfortunately. [1]

[1]http://neo900.org/news/about-the-asn1-vulnerability
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-01-13 08:11:39 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
If they're intentions were honest it's not a lie. It's just being naive.
no, it's called lying. or, at best, deceptive marketing.
Post by m***@gmail.com
But all most parts are, user, replaceable. Which indeed does not make it
modular, but serviceable.
correct.

if it was a truly modular design, the parts would snap or slide-lock
apart in some fashion, there would be a hardware and software standard
published, and the parts would be re-useble in future designs and they
would have PUBLISHED SOME INDICATION OF THEIR EXISTENCE already.

so it's total horseshit and they know it. they're not stupid: they
had enough people on their forums talk about dave hakkan's phonebloks
concept for them to have heard the word "modular" enough times.
Post by m***@gmail.com
The biggest issue is that they've tied the modem and SIM directly to the
rest of the system. It's a cheap decision. Which most manufactures have done
unfortunately. [1]
i told them that it's easy to get hold of a cheap 3G modem containing
a qualcomm MSM chipset. they ceased communication shortly afterwards.

l.

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Allan Mwenda
2017-01-13 08:31:16 UTC
Permalink
The fairphone is repairable not modular. Sneaky marketing on their part. They don't really seem interested in providing much more than that if you ask me.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
2017-01-13 4:56 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Wolfgang Romey
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
If they're intentions were honest it's not a lie. It's just being
naive.
no, it's called lying. or, at best, deceptive marketing.
But all most parts are, user, replaceable. Which indeed does not make
it
modular, but serviceable.
correct.
if it was a truly modular design, the parts would snap or slide-lock
apart in some fashion, there would be a hardware and software standard
published, and the parts would be re-useble in future designs and they
would have PUBLISHED SOME INDICATION OF THEIR EXISTENCE already.
so it's total horseshit and they know it. they're not stupid: they
had enough people on their forums talk about dave hakkan's phonebloks
concept for them to have heard the word "modular" enough times.
The biggest issue is that they've tied the modem and SIM directly to
the
rest of the system. It's a cheap decision. Which most manufactures
have done
unfortunately. [1]
i told them that it's easy to get hold of a cheap 3G modem containing
a qualcomm MSM chipset. they ceased communication shortly afterwards.
l.
_______________________________________________
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--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
m***@gmail.com
2017-01-13 08:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
If they're intentions were honest it's not a lie. It's just being naive.
no, it's called lying. or, at best, deceptive marketing.
Post by m***@gmail.com
But all most parts are, user, replaceable. Which indeed does not make it
modular, but serviceable.
correct.
if it was a truly modular design, the parts would snap or slide-lock
apart in some fashion, there would be a hardware and software standard
published, and the parts would be re-useble in future designs and they
would have PUBLISHED SOME INDICATION OF THEIR EXISTENCE already.
so it's total horseshit and they know it. they're not stupid: they
had enough people on their forums talk about dave hakkan's phonebloks
concept for them to have heard the word "modular" enough times.
Post by m***@gmail.com
The biggest issue is that they've tied the modem and SIM directly to the
rest of the system. It's a cheap decision. Which most manufactures have
done
Post by m***@gmail.com
unfortunately. [1]
i told them that it's easy to get hold of a cheap 3G modem containing
a qualcomm MSM chipset. they ceased communication shortly afterwards.
You're being to brief here. I don't understand.

They are using a Qualcomm MSM (Snapdragon 801) chip for their "Fairphone
2".

Which in my opnion is both good and bad.
Good:
- Open source kernels without NDA
- Opensource display drivers: Freedreno
Bad:
- Modem and SIM are remote programmable and have direct, unswitched,
uncontrolled access to power and RAM. So very bad for your privacy.
- Little effort in up-streaming their modifications to the Linux Kernel
- No free unbricking software.

How bad for your privacy? One rogue cell transceiver (ca. 800$) and
complete control over your phone forever.

But that is true for almost all phones.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-01-13 09:05:27 UTC
Permalink
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by Wolfgang Romey
I think my FairPhone 2, which I own for a month, is some kind of a modular
smartphone.
it's not: they lied.
If they're intentions were honest it's not a lie. It's just being naive.
no, it's called lying. or, at best, deceptive marketing.
Post by m***@gmail.com
But all most parts are, user, replaceable. Which indeed does not make it
modular, but serviceable.
correct.
if it was a truly modular design, the parts would snap or slide-lock
apart in some fashion, there would be a hardware and software standard
published, and the parts would be re-useble in future designs and they
would have PUBLISHED SOME INDICATION OF THEIR EXISTENCE already.
so it's total horseshit and they know it. they're not stupid: they
had enough people on their forums talk about dave hakkan's phonebloks
concept for them to have heard the word "modular" enough times.
Post by m***@gmail.com
The biggest issue is that they've tied the modem and SIM directly to the
rest of the system. It's a cheap decision. Which most manufactures have done
unfortunately. [1]
i told them that it's easy to get hold of a cheap 3G modem containing
a qualcomm MSM chipset. they ceased communication shortly afterwards.
You're being to brief here.
i remember the part number: SEW291. uses a MSM6290 or something.
using that it is entirely isolated via a USB bus, audio is isolated
behind a PWM interface, power may be provided (and CUT with a hard
physical kill switch) so that the 3G modem may be enabled for example
only for a few minutes when you are in a crowded area, exchange
messages (send and receive), hard-cut the 3G modem again and disappear
into the crowd.

if someone *really* wants to upload OTA firmware and arbitrary
executables during that time, they're more than welcome to try - but
it will do absolutely no good if the 3G modem module is POWERED DOWN.

this is the design that i intend to make with the hybridphone.
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/

l.

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