Discussion:
mailing list etiquette
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-18 06:27:51 UTC
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ron hi please remember to cut context. there is 3 paragraphs
comprising several hundred words, repeated, followed by a single
sentence and then a single-sentence question.
these last two sentences are the only relevant context: the rest of
the context you have forced over 400 people to re -read unnecessarily.
I have not forced anyone to read anything.
ron: there are over 400 people on this list. many of them receive
hundreds of messages per day. they read them all. they do not know
that you are violating the rules of the list until they begin to read
your message. when they find, after several seconds of scrolling
down, that their time has been completely wasted because nothing has
been added, they are going to be pissed.
Anyone may ignore my emails.
ron: if the mailing list administrator tells you that you're
disobeying the rules of interaction which put people to significant
inconvenience, do you believe that it is ok to respond with such a
sentence?
You know where to look. It is where there are no '>'.
and how long does it take to do that? it takes a long time, ron.
people are forced to scroll down for a significant amount of time. if
they have a hundred or several hundred messages to read each day, and
they are forced to scroll down more than is necessary only to find
that there was nothing new added, because there is one person who does
not respect the rules which make their lives easier, how long do you
think they are going to continue to contribute to that llist?
I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails.
that is fine if you are interacting privately: it is not fine when
you are interacting with 400 people. you have been asked multiple
times to respect the rules of the list.
I prefere to not delete text in my own replies.
your personal preferences are not relevant when it comes to
interacting with 400 other people.
I cannot make that decision about my replies?
yes you can, because you are being requested to do so by the mailing
list administrator.

out of respect for others, you are being requested to follow the
rules of interaction set for this list. you do not set the rules for
this list: i set the rules for this list.

i get the impression that you are not really listening or respecting
what i am saying, ron.

that therefore forces me to escalate matters. if you do not respond
indicating that you intend to respect the rules of this list (standard
netiquette) then reluctantly i will be forced to escalate to
moderation of your messages until such time as you do listen. this
will place a huge burden of extra work onto me, as for every single
message that you send i will receive a notification, then i will be
forced to go to a web interface, then i will be forced to read and
review your message in full, and then either approve or reject i,
writing a review each and every time explaining why your message is
being rejected, should it be rejected.

do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely*
wish to force me to take such action? what do you think the
implications would be of forcing me to take such action to protect
this list and its members?

would you agree that it would be a good idea for you to say "whoops
i'm sorry, i understand now that this is serious, i will listen and
follow your advice so that i do not inconvenience so many people" ?

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-18 06:49:08 UTC
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Hi Ron,
Am Sat, 17 Jun 2017 13:35:59 -0400
[..]
I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails.
I prefere to not delete text in my own replies.
I cannot make that decision about my replies?
I could image, that Luke would like the participants of this mailinglist to use
https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

RFC 1855 not 1955. took a few minutes to find it. section 2.1.1 is
a little dated, but 95% relevant. interestingly it contains no
specific advice for mailing list interaction.

this example contains good advice on mailing list etiquette:
http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php

please read - and follow and adhere to - section 9, ron. please also
follow the link which leads here and read it:

http://howto-pages.org/posting_style/
Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message,
include enough original material to be understood but no more. It
is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including
all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material.
Since Luke maintains this mailinglist, I find it to be acceptable, that he
can define the communication policy of this list, if he prefers so.
i do. i used to be quite lax about it but i feel it is becoming important.
Specifically in this case he is following a widely used style - even though we
are all aware of the fact, that there are different communities or contexts out
there using very different styles with regard to quoting.
for a "chatty" list such as a support self-help (e.g. alcoholics
anonymous) group, top-posting would be the norm as most people would
interact with either single-sentence (top-posted) replies of
encouragement, or they would write massive walls-of-text to which it
would be typically be perfectly fine to top-post.

this list is not such a list.

this is a technical list and it can get very busy and very complex
very quickly. following interaction rules that have been developed
over many decades for technical lists would be a good idea.
http://howto-pages.org/posting_style/

l.

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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-06-18 20:09:39 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely*
wish to force me to take such action?
No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
pieces of information.

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Brendan Sleight
2017-06-18 20:59:27 UTC
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No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock

Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this
list to those who can follow the RFC.

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zap
2017-06-19 16:08:45 UTC
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Post by Brendan Sleight
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock
Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this
list to those who can follow the RFC.
I will follow the rules now if you want, I just didn't know what they
all were. That's all.

I should only keep previous messages that are relevant right?

Just clarifying.
Post by Brendan Sleight
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-19 16:36:08 UTC
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Post by zap
Post by Brendan Sleight
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock
Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this
list to those who can follow the RFC.
I will follow the rules now if you want, I just didn't know what they
all were. That's all.
no problem zap.

btw zap also didn't remove extraneous context (in his last message to
the list) so i asked him also to respect context-cutting (aka
"trimming"):

http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php#toppost

Posting a "me too" comment at the bottom of a 100+ line message is no
better because people have to scroll all the way down through 100+
lines they've already read in order to see your one-liner. One word
comes to mind for that: frustrating.

The generally accepted "right way" of doing things is called "inline
posting", whereby you insert your comments straight after that on
which you are commenting, having stripped unnecessary text from the
original quoted text. The end result is something which makes much
more sense because it reads like a conversation.
Post by zap
I should only keep previous messages that are relevant right?
previous *bits* of a message that are relevant: it's called "trimming".

thanks for agreeing to follow the rules.

ron: if zap can agree immediately once he understands that it's
inconveniencing people, is there a good reason (which benefits the
project) why you do not wish to?

l.

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Vincent Legoll
2017-06-19 16:45:55 UTC
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+1 and kudos to people agreeing to follow the netiquette & ML posting
rules.

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
The generally accepted "right way" of doing things is called "inline
posting", whereby you insert your comments straight after that on
which you are commenting, having stripped unnecessary text from the
original quoted text. The end result is something which makes much
more sense because it reads like a conversation.
I'd add that you should also put a blank line between the context you
keep (the quote) and your answer / reaction to it, as that is also helpful
to make it more quickly readable by others.

Thanks
--
Vincent Legoll

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-19 16:50:47 UTC
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On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Vincent Legoll
Post by Vincent Legoll
+1 and kudos to people agreeing to follow the netiquette & ML posting
rules.
[snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate
that that action has been taken]
I'd add that you should also put a blank line between the context you
keep (the quote) and your answer / reaction to it, as that is also helpful
to make it more quickly readable by others.
ah! yeah i do that so automatically that i forgot about it.

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Pablo Rath
2017-06-21 11:02:09 UTC
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[snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate
that that action has been taken]
Is an indicator like above the preferred way on this list to show a part of the message has been trimmed?
I am asking because I usually trim messages when replying but did not
insert such markers in square brackets.

kind regards
Pablo

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-21 11:08:29 UTC
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Post by Pablo Rath
[snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate
that that action has been taken]
Is an indicator like above the preferred way on this
list to show a part of the message has been trimmed?
i've seen people use it on other lists and conversations, it's not
very common. i am ambivalent (no preference).
Post by Pablo Rath
I am asking because I usually trim messages
when replying but did not
insert such markers in square brackets.
the only reason i did it here was to demonstrate and highlight
the practice *of* being courteous to other people by trimming
unnecessary context.

that's what this is really all about: ron sadly demonstrated a
complete disregard for other people by indicating that his
own personal preferences for composing and replying are
more important... even when told (repeatedly) that putting
other people to inconvenience is not acceptable.

l.

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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-21 11:20:18 UTC
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...
...
Post by Pablo Rath
I am asking because I usually trim messages when replying but did not
insert such markers in square brackets.
I usually mark it with unquoted ellipses, as above.

-- hendrik

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-18 21:07:25 UTC
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Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely*
wish to force me to take such action?
No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
pieces of information.
ah. *deep breath*. i'm very very sorry to have to inform you ron
that you don't have thar right. you as well as everyone else are
guests of this list.

so it is with deep regret that your answer forces me to place your
email address under moderation until you can agree to the rules of the
list.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-18 21:15:55 UTC
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Post by Brendan Sleight
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous
No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock
it's a leetle more complex than that, brendan, but... yeah.
Post by Brendan Sleight
Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this
list to those who can follow the RFC.
i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through
intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to
give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and
consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages
under moderation as an intermediate step.

that makes for a hell of a lot of otherwise unnecessary work for me
but that's just how these things go.

l.

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Sam Noble
2017-06-21 03:04:35 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through
intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to
give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and
consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages
under moderation as an intermediate step.
List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update. Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode?
--
Sent from my $DEVICE with $SOFTWARE. Please excuse my brevity.

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zap
2017-06-21 04:53:38 UTC
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Post by Sam Noble
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through
intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to
give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and
consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages
under moderation as an intermediate step.
List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update. Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode?
Nah, I have just been waiting to hear more from everyone else. That is all.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-21 10:46:03 UTC
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Post by Sam Noble
List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially
in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update.
i'm drafting something (see end of update), there's been 5 more
subscriptions (so far) - you don't get to see those.
Post by Sam Noble
Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode?
no. as you can see by your message getting through :)

l.

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