Discussion:
Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-06 21:22:16 UTC
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please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5)
is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining
comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and
relevant.

l.


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From: Timothy Pearson <***@pearsoncomputing.net>
Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:19 PM
Subject: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser
To: trinity-***@lists.pearsoncomputing.net


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA224

All,

It's that time of year again! As we look toward the release of Debian
Stretch and another version of TDE, I'd like to ask for your continued
support to help keep TDE online.

This year I'm going to try something new. If you donate $40 to TDE [1], I
will allow 2 months access to the nightly build repositories that now
include Debian Stretch and Raspbian Jessie. Additionally, I'd like those
who donate at this level to nominate two bugs that I will personally look
into (excepting those relating to support for Wayland, Qt4/Qt5, or
Webkit). This way your donations have a direct and positive effect on TDE
itself, and TDE can continue to exist in its current form.

Personally I would suggest the LibreOffice integration bug or possibly an
update of the GTK3 theme engine to fix the rendering bugs as potential
candidates, but in the end it's up to you! A full listing of open bugs is
available here:

http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__open__&content=&no_redirect=1&order=Importance&product=&query_format=specific

As always, thank you for your support and continued feedback -- we
couldn't develop TDE without it!

Tim

[1] https://trinitydesktop.org/donate.php
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Bill Kontos
2017-06-06 21:42:10 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5)
is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining
comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and
relevant.
l.
I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon
have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but
with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better
?
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-06 21:50:20 UTC
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Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5)
is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining
comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and
relevant.
l.
I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon
have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but
with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better
?
they're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason. the TDE maintainers have become the
de-facto maintainers of qt3. qt3 is the only version of qt which is
not bloated beyond sanity. if it wasn't for TDE, qt3 would have long
ago become abandonware.

there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can
immediately think of.

l.

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Christopher Havel
2017-06-06 21:55:47 UTC
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Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE
is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.)
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-06 22:33:04 UTC
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On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE
is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.)
phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its
simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of
gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting
onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default.

l.

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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-06 22:36:52 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE
is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.)
phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its
simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of
gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting
onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default.
I'm using xfce as my main desktop. It works.

-- hendrik

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Christopher Havel
2017-06-06 22:39:49 UTC
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Yaaaaaaaay I didn't get excoriated for my choice. I love how configurable
it is. Then again, I am an artist... we're persnickety :P

Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I
tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the
USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock
screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive
and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for
me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I
realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm
mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity
amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as
one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential
rising star.
Post by Christopher Havel
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...?
(MATE
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Christopher Havel
is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie
thing.)
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its
simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of
gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting
onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default.
I'm using xfce as my main desktop. It works.
-- hendrik
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Luke Yelavich
2017-06-06 23:00:13 UTC
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Post by Christopher Havel
Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I
tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the
USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock
screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive
and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for
me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I
realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm
mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity
amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as
one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential
rising star.
I read recently that there are plans to move to using Qt5 going
forward too, so make of that what you will.

Luke

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Christopher Havel
2017-06-06 23:08:58 UTC
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Forgive the one-time topposting, please; I'm on a phone for the moment and
phone Gmail, being different from webclient Gmail, is not friendly to my
customary post style.

*ahem*

I'm really not familiar with what Qt and GDK actually are, TBH. I believe
my understanding is correct that they are some sort of building-block type
systems (scripting languages, if I had to guess), such that WMs and DEs can
be made from Qt or GDK "parts"... but that's as far as I go.
Post by Luke Yelavich
Post by Christopher Havel
Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I
tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the
USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock
screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive
and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for
me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I
realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm
mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity
amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as
one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential
rising star.
I read recently that there are plans to move to using Qt5 going
forward too, so make of that what you will.
Luke
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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-07 00:54:19 UTC
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Post by Christopher Havel
Forgive the one-time topposting, please; I'm on a phone for the moment and
phone Gmail, being different from webclient Gmail, is not friendly to my
customary post style.
*ahem*
I'm really not familiar with what Qt and GDK actually are, TBH. I believe
my understanding is correct that they are some sort of building-block type
systems (scripting languages, if I had to guess), such that WMs and DEs can
be made from Qt or GDK "parts"... but that's as far as I go.
GDK is the Gimp Drawing Kit, invented so that the GIMP could have
windows and menus and the like. It turned out to be useful for things
other tha Gnu's Image Manipulation Program, and so people built all
sorts of stuff on top of it. Including simple and bloated desktop
environments.

-- hendrik

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Bill Kontos
2017-06-07 08:26:39 UTC
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Post by Christopher Havel
Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I
tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the
USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock
screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive
and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for
me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I
realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm
mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity
amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as
one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential
rising star.
I love the fact that they have an Ubuntu version. The DE is completely
distro-agnostic unlike things like Cinnamon for example.
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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-06 22:17:02 UTC
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Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Post by Bill Kontos
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5)
is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining
comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and
relevant.
l.
I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon
have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but
with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better
?
they're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason. the TDE maintainers have become the
de-facto maintainers of qt3. qt3 is the only version of qt which is
not bloated beyond sanity. if it wasn't for TDE, qt3 would have long
ago become abandonware.
there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can
immediately think of.
Just wondering ... are they infested with systemd? dbus? pulseaudio?

-- hendrik
k

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-06-06 22:37:54 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can
immediately think of.
Just wondering ... are they infested with systemd?
no.
Post by Hendrik Boom
dbus?
KDE has its own RPC mechanism called DCOP, which, famously, was
hacked together in about 20 minutes. KDE 3 predates d-bus by quite
some years so it was never integrated in.
Post by Hendrik Boom
pulseaudio?
again, KDE3 predates pulseaudio so it never had pulseaudio as a
critical dependency.

basically for all the insidious fuck-ups that have been made (and by
a funny coincidence *entirely* funded primarily by redhat), KDE3
side-steps absolutely all of them.

it is also not insignificant that KDE3 is primarily a *European* endeavour.

l.

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David Niklas
2017-06-11 02:27:47 UTC
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100
<snip>
Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ?
They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason.
And GTK is bad because?
If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK?

Thanks,
David

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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-13 01:30:51 UTC
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Post by David Niklas
On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100
<snip>
Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ?
They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason.
And GTK is bad because?
If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK?
No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image manipulation
program.

It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the
low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X
protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which
goern communicataions with a window manager. (I don't know how much of this
is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained
more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far
as I cana tell)

There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit.

Qt, is presumably another such system.

And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to another major
release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old code is dying.
It's another of the systems that have been forked. I don't know how well the
old release is being maintained.

-- hendrik

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Neil Jansen
2017-06-13 01:55:34 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the
low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X
protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which
goern communicataions with a window manager. (I don't know how much of this
is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained
more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far
as I cana tell)
The two big ones are xcb (https://xcb.freedesktop.org/) and xlib (
https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/)
Post by Hendrik Boom
There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit.
Many tiling window managers (http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=i3-gaps) do exactly
that. They build directly on top of xlib or xcb, and they're freaking
awesome. I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has mentioned any of the popular
tiling window managers like i3 in this thread. They're so lightweight and
usable, why would you need Gnome or KDE?
Post by Hendrik Boom
And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to another major
release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old code is dying.
It's another of the systems that have been forked. I don't know how well the
old release is being maintained.
Look at some of the tiling window managers: i3, bspwm, xmonad are 3 popular
ones. If you hate gnome and you hate KDE, these are all worth a look.
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Bill Kontos
2017-06-13 08:07:10 UTC
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Post by Neil Jansen
Many tiling window managers (http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=i3-gaps) do exactly
that. They build directly on top of xlib or xcb, and they're freaking
awesome. I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has mentioned any of the popular
I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why
they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it
using haswell.

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Neil Jansen
2017-06-14 13:44:01 UTC
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Post by Bill Kontos
I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why
they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it
using haswell.
Cool, glad to hear that someone out there is using it.

I still don't think that they get enough love though. They're getting
popular in a few small communities (arch, and reddit, and that's about
it). To lkcl's original quote "[TDE] is strategically quite important as
it's one of the remaining comprehensive desktop environments that is also
light-weight and relevant.", i3 and xmonad are more lightweight, and are
more relevant to the sort of culture to which this mailing list is centered
around.

A few more links for those that may be curious about tiling window
managers, while I'm beating a dead horse:

- Great introduction video
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Comparison_of_tiling_window_managers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager
https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ - active communty with lots of posted
screenshots from various environments

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Bill Kontos
2017-06-14 21:06:01 UTC
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Post by Neil Jansen
To lkcl's original quote "[TDE] is strategically quite important as
it's one of the remaining comprehensive desktop environments that is also
light-weight and relevant.", i3 and xmonad are more lightweight, and are
more relevant to the sort of culture to which this mailing list is centered
around.
A tilling window manager is just that, a window manager. It manages
windows, resizes etc. A desktop environment is a complete set of tools
including applications, applets, utilities, a window manager etc. Most
of the applications we are using today with any kind of setup we run
are part of some DE, with some notable exceptions like transmission.
But that's beyond the point, TDE seems to be an interesting project(
btw you can e.g. run i3 as the window manager in kde replacing kwin
with some pretty sweet integration if you really want).

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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-14 22:39:35 UTC
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Post by Neil Jansen
Post by Bill Kontos
I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why
they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it
using haswell.
Cool, glad to hear that someone out there is using it.
I still don't think that they get enough love though.
If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows on
top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily small
windows.

-- hendrik

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Tor, the Marqueteur
2017-06-14 23:13:33 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows
on top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily
small windows.
Depends on the WM. I've tried a few, but returned to the first tiling
WM I tried, Ratpoison. Couldn't get used to the way the others would
move and resize the tiles without being told to. Ratpoison, on the
other hand, I've seen is arguably not a true tiler, but it starts with
the whole screen taken up with one window. The screen can be then
partitioned into any number of frames by straight lines across the
frame being divided, with a window in each frame. Any windows that
don't fit in the frames are "behind", as it were, the visible windows.

Tor

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Bill Kontos
2017-06-15 07:22:55 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows on
top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily small
windows.
-- hendrik
i3 will open a window full screen, then depending on if you tell it to
open the next vertically or horizontally it will split the screen into
2, then for the third it will split the room the currently focused
window has into half, again vertically or horizontally. You can make
the windows show as tabs if you want too. If there are too many
windows you can move them around in different workspaces( default is
super+shift+q) and then move between workspaces with super+123...0 An
exception to this are dialogue windows. Also if you so desire you can
switch a window from tilling to floating mode, but that doesn't work
very well in my experience.

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Tzafrir Cohen
2017-06-13 09:38:33 UTC
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Post by Hendrik Boom
Post by David Niklas
And GTK is bad because?
If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK?
No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image manipulation
program.
And has since gone through major revisions. Its name is GTK+, BTW.
Post by Hendrik Boom
It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name),
X Toolkit is Xt, not GTK+. GTK+ nowadays has several backends. On Linux
it can use either X or Wayland (or also Mir, in the Ubuntu variant).
Post by Hendrik Boom
which is the
low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X
protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which
goern communicataions with a window manager.
And also the compositor. And keep in mind that rendering is client side
nowadays.
Post by Hendrik Boom
(I don't know how much of this
is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained
more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far
as I cana tell)
There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit.
I happen to use a language (Hebrew) that requires some non-trivial
rendering. GTK+ and QT support this (at least the basics: display. More
complex layouts and rendering of edited text have their own gotchas) for
over 10 years. If you don't use them, each program has to add support
independently.

This may e.g. show up in window titles, because browsers may put the
title of pages there. The relatively minimalistic window manager I now
use (awesome) renders them just fine. Because it uses GTK+ (or at least
parts of the GTK+ stack). Another minimalistic WM I used to use (icewm)
added support for the library fribidi independently and thus should
properly render Hebrew and Arabic. But good luck with other complex
languages.
--
Tzafrir Cohen | ***@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
***@cohens.org.il | | best
***@debian.org | | friend

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David Niklas
2017-06-17 02:48:56 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:30:51 -0400
Post by Hendrik Boom
Post by David Niklas
On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100
<snip>
Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ?
They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason.
And GTK is bad because?
If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK?
No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image
manipulation program.
It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the
low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for
the X protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications
conventions, which goern communicataions with a window manager. (I
don't know how much of this is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's,
and I gather it at least hs remained more or less compatible; there's a
lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far as I cana tell)
There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit.
I've read that it's old, difficult to port programs/to/from other OSes
or X to wayland, and outdated. Thus, I read from others that my choices
are QT, GTK, the out dated and ugly Tk or the very rare, yet pretty Fox.
Post by Hendrik Boom
Qt, is presumably another such system.
And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to
another major release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old
code is dying. It's another of the systems that have been forked. I
don't know how well the old release is being maintained.
-- hendrik
Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about
wayland like they have done with systemd?

Thanks,
David

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Bill Kontos
2017-06-17 18:50:39 UTC
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Post by David Niklas
Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about
wayland like they have done with systemd?
Thanks,
David
Nobody is getting fanatical over wayland. Wayland solves real problems
with a rather small disturbance( drivers are almost the same, only
applications are affected) and it has some sort of xwayland fallback
mode in case it doesn't work which worked like a charm on the case of
k3b for me. gtk supports it pretty well now and qt is working on it
too. It was turned on by default on the current fedora release so as
you can probably guess it's a long way from ready but it's improving
really fast, and at least as far as gnome apps are concerned they work
relatively well( gparted being an exception).

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Hendrik Boom
2017-06-17 23:22:07 UTC
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Post by David Niklas
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:30:51 -0400
Post by Hendrik Boom
Post by David Niklas
On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
<snip>
Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ?
They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that
alone is good enough reason.
And GTK is bad because?
If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK?
No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image
manipulation program.
It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the
low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for
the X protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications
conventions, which goern communicataions with a window manager. (I
don't know how much of this is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's,
and I gather it at least hs remained more or less compatible; there's a
lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far as I cana tell)
There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit.
I've read that it's old, difficult to port programs/to/from other OSes
or X to wayland, and outdated. Thus, I read from others that my choices
are QT, GTK, the out dated and ugly Tk or the very rare, yet pretty Fox.
There's FLTK, too.
Post by David Niklas
Post by Hendrik Boom
Qt, is presumably another such system.
And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to
another major release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old
code is dying. It's another of the systems that have been forked. I
don't know how well the old release is being maintained.
-- hendrik
Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about
wayland like they have done with systemd?
X has already been forked. That's why we now have xorg instead of xfree.

-- hendrik

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