Discussion:
firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?
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David Niklas
2017-05-29 21:12:33 UTC
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On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100
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All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
I'm confused.
Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you
get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source?
For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68
project?
Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU?
Or you just leave the HW crippled?


Thanks,
David

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-30 02:19:57 UTC
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Post by David Niklas
On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
I'm confused.
Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you
get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source?
this was discussed a year ago or so. same process as for the EOMA68-A20
Post by David Niklas
For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68
project?
by leaving out the proprietary crap, simple as that. see below.
Post by David Niklas
Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU?
it is actually a different GPU but that does not change the
assessment process carried out by the FSF.
Post by David Niklas
Or you just leave the HW crippled?
if the FSF considered the device to be "crippled" by it not having
the 3D engine running, such that there was a genuine risk that people
would actively seek out the installation of proprietary software.

in the case of e.g. a proprietary on-board WIFI device that *would*
constitute a genuine risk of people *actively* seeking out proprietary
firmware, and consequently the FSF quite naturally refuses to certify
devices that contain non-removable proprietary on-board WIFI chips.

however in this case it actually turns out that if you use the
proprietary 3D GPU for the tasks that i suspect you *believe* will
quotes accelerate quotes certain operations (such as X11), the MALI
embedded GPU (or its associated proprietary software - we can't
actually tell which because we DON'T HAVE THE DAMN SOURCE) is so
piss-poor at its job that it actually SLOWS DOWN CERTAIN OPERATIONS of
X11.

given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works
really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D
engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage
is NOT A CONCERN.

so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was
described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process?

now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product,
*that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF
Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which
*only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too
much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to
download the proprietary drivers.

but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it?

does that help clarify?

l.

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d***@mail.com
2017-05-30 20:10:35 UTC
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On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works
really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D
engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage
is NOT A CONCERN.
so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was
described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process?
I was not here a year ago.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product,
*that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF
Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which
*only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too
much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to
download the proprietary drivers.
but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it?
does that help clarify?
l.
Yes, that's very clear, thanks.

David

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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-05-30 21:07:52 UTC
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In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, which they have done towards me, to email the cad files.
About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad.
About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be available until lkcl decides to provide them. I disagree on the decision. Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be provided immediately. Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad about the cad files in question he can make that choice.

In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. The ad is misleading and deceptive.
I have found no reservations about the mali gpu source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably not email the mali gpu source code, because they do not have it. They can email the pcb cad files because they have them.
That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. If firefly does not provide the data in question, then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source.
Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form.





-------- Original Message --------
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by David Niklas
On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
I'm confused.
Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you
get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source?
this was discussed a year ago or so. same process as for the EOMA68-A20
Post by David Niklas
For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68
project?
by leaving out the proprietary crap, simple as that. see below.
Post by David Niklas
Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU?
it is actually a different GPU but that does not change the
assessment process carried out by the FSF.
Post by David Niklas
Or you just leave the HW crippled?
if the FSF considered the device to be "crippled" by it not having
the 3D engine running, such that there was a genuine risk that people
would actively seek out the installation of proprietary software.
in the case of e.g. a proprietary on-board WIFI device that *would*
constitute a genuine risk of people *actively* seeking out proprietary
firmware, and consequently the FSF quite naturally refuses to certify
devices that contain non-removable proprietary on-board WIFI chips.
however in this case it actually turns out that if you use the
proprietary 3D GPU for the tasks that i suspect you *believe* will
quotes accelerate quotes certain operations (such as X11), the MALI
embedded GPU (or its associated proprietary software - we can't
actually tell which because we DON'T HAVE THE DAMN SOURCE) is so
piss-poor at its job that it actually SLOWS DOWN CERTAIN OPERATIONS of
X11.
given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works
really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D
engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage
is NOT A CONCERN.
so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was
described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process?
now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product,
*that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF
Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which
*only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too
much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to
download the proprietary drivers.
but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it?
does that help clarify?
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-31 05:01:54 UTC
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Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff
has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting,
which they have done towards me, to email the cad files.
aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential
business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't
do that, ron.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is
not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code
not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad.
this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you
may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word
is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be
available until lkcl decides to provide them.
noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that
are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens
of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes
and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly
established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they
fuck it up and get it wrong.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I disagree on the decision.
tough.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be
provided immediately.
normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the
housings those *are* 100% available.

however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception
to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*.

let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear?
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad
there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by
businesses. this is not a business.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
about the cad files in question he can make that choice.
In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source.
that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it
does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
The ad is misleading and deceptive.
ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that
potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes
cross-associate words.

in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility
of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files.

however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open
hardware" or "libre hardware".

it's a common enough mistake.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I have found no reservations about the mali gpu
source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably
not email the mali gpu source code, because they do
not have it.
that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have,
and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
They can email the pcb cad files because they have them.
ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them.
they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their
choice of words.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu
source code and the pcb cad files from firefly.
ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the
free software community by doing so.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
If firefly does not provide the data in question,
then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source.
that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their
choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release
and do not choose to release.

you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the
source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their
decisions.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form.
don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the
entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies
like Acer from wanting to work with us.

l.

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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-31 05:15:57 UTC
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ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's
unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics
come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly
understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about
the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out.

people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have
made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release
the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware.

if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not
themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i
guarantee it.

so please don't do it: it's unethical.

l.

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John Luke Gibson
2017-05-31 13:43:08 UTC
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If I may put in my two cents, I look at it from the perspective of two
cultures.
We aren't a country and don't have our own language, so it's a bit of
a strange analogy to take literally but I mean it literally.

I see this as the same with being Vegan, different culture, different ethics.
The most unethical thing is to try and destroy a culture first and foremost.
By being isolationist and not cooperating with people and
organizations that are part of a different culture and getting to a
point where we can not-only respect our differences but appreciate
them as well, one is ultimately setting out to BURDEN all life with
their ethics. Filibustering the room; stopping all progress for the
sake of one ideal.

I think thats part of what Luke means when saying: it's unethical.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's
unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics
come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly
understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about
the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out.
people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have
made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release
the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware.
if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not
themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i
guarantee it.
so please don't do it: it's unethical.
l.
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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-05-31 17:02:46 UTC
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-------- Original Message --------
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:15:57 +0100
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's
unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics
come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly
understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about
the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out.
people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have
made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release
the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware.
if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not
themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i
guarantee it.
so please don't do it: it's unethical.
l.
It is not common to debate strategy on a public mailing list.
Because this is a minor matter and I do not believe I will get
the data I want from firefly no matter what, I will tell what I wanted to do.

I believe their kickstarter webpage is misleading and deceptive.
They write the hardware is open source. Likely it is not legally
established what defines open source hardware. I would say
every piece of data and software about the computer has to
be open source. It is about what the buyer of an item
reasonably can expect. Not what seller decides by himself.
To my knowledge seller has made no reservations on kickstarter.
Then I say, he has to hand over what data seller has. They
are supposed to be professionals. If they screw up in their ad,
it is their problem. Arguments saying it is their data and business
platform are not relevant.

I am located in eu. Firefly is located in china. If firefly will not
hand over the data I want, I will have to sue them in china or
usa, if that is where kickstarter is located. I am not going to
do that. If firefly refuses to provide the data, I am going to
file a complaint to kickstarter about firefly.

I tried to get the data. Wrote them and see what happens.
Maybe firefly by mistake would provide the data. Did I
believe it would work? No.


You may call it coercion and unethical. I do it anyway.
Because I am weighing it up against my privacy and
computer security. I cannot buy new libre software
computers which have all devices enabled.
Post by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
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Christopher Havel
2017-05-31 17:10:18 UTC
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Dude, with all due respect, Luke knows what he's talking about. He's been
in this world for a good long while. If he says "pump your brakes" on this
stuff, like he's basically doing... I'd be pumping my brakes right about
now.

Sounds to me like you're taking a stick to a hornets' nest here. Not a good
candidate for favorite outdoor sport, if you ask me.

I'm just sayin'.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
2017-05-31 17:21:04 UTC
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On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Christopher Havel
Post by Christopher Havel
Sounds to me like you're taking a stick to a hornets' nest here. Not a good
candidate for favorite outdoor sport, if you ask me.
i worked out a long time ago that these companies are not going to
break from proprietary practices without successful examples to follow
in the very arena that we'd like them to change.

l.

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r***@Safe-mail.net
2017-05-31 17:51:30 UTC
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-------- Original Message --------
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <***@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-***@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:01:54 +0100
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff
has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting,
which they have done towards me, to email the cad files.
aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential
business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't
do that, ron.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is
not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code
not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad.
this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you
may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word
is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be
available until lkcl decides to provide them.
noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that
are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens
of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes
and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly
established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they
fuck it up and get it wrong.
I understand your arguments and why you made the decision. I was
pointing out, that proper open source reasoning, in my opinion,
would require that all data is provided.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I disagree on the decision.
tough.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be
provided immediately.
normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the
housings those *are* 100% available.
however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception
to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*.
let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear?
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad
there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by
businesses. this is not a business.
I have reflected on that. What I write now is not
directed against you or your crowd funding. It is in general about
crowd funding. It seems crowd funding is some form of
workaround about buying an item. I have no knowledge
about court decisions in this field. I could imagine due to
consumer law, a court would rule it a common purchase.
Meaning consumer rights would apply.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
about the cad files in question he can make that choice.
In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source.
that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it
does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
The ad is misleading and deceptive.
ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that
potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes
cross-associate words.
in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility
of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files.
however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open
hardware" or "libre hardware".
I disagree. Firefly writes "open source hardware platform". I find my
interpretation legitimate. You are not backing up your interpretation
with arguments. My argument is, they say it is open source. Then
everything has to be open source if no reservations are stated.
it's a common enough mistake.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
I have found no reservations about the mali gpu
source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably
not email the mali gpu source code, because they do
not have it.
that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have,
and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did.
That is debatable.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
They can email the pcb cad files because they have them.
ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them.
they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their
choice of words.
Again debatable.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu
source code and the pcb cad files from firefly.
ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the
free software community by doing so.
I do not believe playing nice with the manufacturers will show a
great rate of successes. Rather if big numbers of people would
coordinated act like I do, some impact might show.
There is no reason to not try both path simultaneous. Some
people play nice. Other make demands.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
If firefly does not provide the data in question,
then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source.
that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their
choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release
and do not choose to release.
you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the
source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their
decisions.
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form.
don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the
entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies
like Acer from wanting to work with us.
You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions.
Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making
demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation
of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No.
If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer
with demands, then there might be some impact.

Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers
should be done.
Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point
of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, might
show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the
power to have a say against manufacturers.
l.
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John Luke Gibson
2017-05-31 23:14:25 UTC
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Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions.
Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making
demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation
of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No.
If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer
with demands, then there might be some impact.
Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers
should be done.
Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point
of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, might
show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the
power to have a say against manufacturers.
The best way to approach the issue is as a partner, not as a client.
There are people that go through the support channels with
unreasonable demands or QA-failure related complaints magnifying them
to ridiculous proportions.

When using support channels to address a legitimate ethical concern,
one will only look like one of those unreasonable customers.

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Allan Mwenda
2017-06-02 06:14:09 UTC
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I'm going to agree that going through the support channels will get you nowhere. You want to talk to management, way up management like Product Manager or CEO. Otherwise PR will ignore you and if you sue their suits will bury you in delays.
Post by John Luke Gibson
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions.
Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making
demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation
of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No.
If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer
with demands, then there might be some impact.
Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers
should be done.
Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point
of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now,
might
Post by r***@Safe-mail.net
show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the
power to have a say against manufacturers.
The best way to approach the issue is as a partner, not as a client.
There are people that go through the support channels with
unreasonable demands or QA-failure related complaints magnifying them
to ridiculous proportions.
When using support channels to address a legitimate ethical concern,
one will only look like one of those unreasonable customers.
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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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